I build a big pot, now what?

[BWebb]

Well, this hasn't gone the way I wanted. I'll post the entire hand and you guys can critique my play.

UTG+1 is 16/10 after 50 hands. I believe the LRR is a pot building move, not AA or KK. For my rationale on this, see below.

MP-1 is 70/7 over 30 hands. However, he has gotten out of line postflop.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K /images/graemlins/club.gif, J /images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero caps, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 3-bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (21.50 BB) 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif(3 players)

Hero checks planning to call a single bet.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 is 16/10 after 50 hands. I believe the LRR is a pot building move, not AA or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you think that?

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 is 16/10 after 50 hands. I believe the LRR is a pot building move, not AA or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you think that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the pot is multiway and a 10% PFR makes me think he raises AA or KK here every time.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 is 16/10 after 50 hands. I believe the LRR is a pot building move, not AA or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you think that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the pot is multiway and a 10% PFR makes me think he raises AA or KK here every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to argue the read, which may or may not suck. Given that this is your read, what's your question? I don't get it.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 is 16/10 after 50 hands. I believe the LRR is a pot building move, not AA or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you think that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the pot is multiway and a 10% PFR makes me think he raises AA or KK here every time.

[/ QUOTE ]
But he also may have thought the maniac was going to raise it so he could LRR his big pair?

Bet the flop.

[toss]

I don't understand your PF cap.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 is 16/10 after 50 hands. I believe the LRR is a pot building move, not AA or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you think that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the pot is multiway and a 10% PFR makes me think he raises AA or KK here every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, my PFR is over 10 and I limp-reraise with aces or kings on rare occasion.

I pretty much never limp-reraise with anything else.

But, then again, UTG+1 isn't me.

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 is 16/10 after 50 hands. I believe the LRR is a pot building move, not AA or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you think that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the pot is multiway and a 10% PFR makes me think he raises AA or KK here every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to argue the read, which may or may not suck. Given that this is your read, what's your question? I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]


I have a vunerable hand in a huge pot OOP. How would you proceed here?

As for the read, why would you automatically put him on AA or KK? He raises 10% of the time PF, so he is pretty aggressive. The limp makes me think he has a good multiway hand, something like J10s or a small-mid pocket pair. He sees it is going to be multiway, so he LRR to build a big pot in case he flops good.

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 is 16/10 after 50 hands. I believe the LRR is a pot building move, not AA or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you think that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the pot is multiway and a 10% PFR makes me think he raises AA or KK here every time.

[/ QUOTE ]
But he also may have thought the maniac was going to raise it so he could LRR his big pair?

Bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


Sorry if my OP was misleading. He was a post flop maniac, not a raise every chance preflop type.

[Nick C]

I think you should bet the flop.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[BWebb]

Well, this hasn't gone the way I wanted. I'll post the rest of the hand and you guys can critique my play.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (21.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

Hero checks planning to call a single bet.

[Nick C]

The thing is, the pot is huge on the flop, and it's damn near impossible to protect your hand against anything that has a decent chance against you.

So, after you checked the flop, I think I'd just checkraise, hoping my hand was best and that it held up.

That said, your turn checkraise did drive out whatever UTG+1 was playing with, and that seems like a worthwhile thing to me, even if he just had AK and 3 outs against your hand.

[SackUp]

after capping the flop (which I would not do) you need to bet out.

when you didn't bet out your really should have c/r. The c/r might be an even better move if you only think a late player will bet and then you can actually protect your hand (maybe).

That 3 bet on the turn hurts. I'd like to see his postflop aggression b/c a turn 3 bet after being c/r typically means a big hand, more than top pair. A fold is hard, but man calling UI seems only right b/c of the huge pot, but I don't know if you ahead enough to even justify it then unless the guy really is a maniac.

[clownshoes]

Why didnt you bet the flop?

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
Why didnt you bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is my reasoning. Not saying it is correct, but this is what I was thinking.

IMO, I really can't protect my hand on the flop. If I bet out, any hand with 2 outs is getting odds to call. So, even if I give up a free card it isn't really THAT disasterous. Plus, I doubt this pot is getting checked through. So, I checked to see what developed. When it goes bet, call back to me on the flop, there are 23 sbs in the pot. If I raise, the remaining players will be getting immediate odds of 12.5-1, with the guarantee of two more small bets going in from the bettor and caller (true the fear of the reraise might cause some hands to fold, but I don't think it's a big factor). So basically, hands with 3 outs will be getting odds to call. So, I call hoping to checkraise the turn. That is what happened. Getting 3-bet suck, but there is no way I'm folding. The remaining action was:

River: 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Hero checks, MP-1 checks, CO checks.

Hero shows KJ for a pair of Jacks.
MP-1 shows Q /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif for a wtf???
CO shows T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif for another wtf???

Hero wins a 21.5 BB pot.