BUBBLE!! uber small stack in bb A9 utg..

[raptor517]

***** Hand History for Game 2548156070 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:14906005 Level:6 Blinds(100/200) - Tuesday, August 16, 23:15:58 EDT 2005
Table Table 14038 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: sellalot ( $6310 )
Seat 6: EAMelguizo ( $2125 )
Seat 8: mikeylions ( $290 )
Seat 10: Itachi86 ( $1275 )
Trny:14906005 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Itachi86 [ 9d Ad ]
Itachi86

UH OH WHAT DO YOU DO???? holla

I like a minraise here. If you get reraised by one of the bigger stacks behin you, you can reasonably assume that they have a pretty strong hand, and can fold and make a move when you are already ITM. More than likely, the two others will fold, and you will be HU against the short stack with what should be a favorite to knock him out and add to your chip total.

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
I like a minraise here. If you get reraised by one of the bigger stacks behin you, you can reasonably assume that they have a pretty strong hand, and can fold and make a move when you are already ITM. More than likely, the two others will fold, and you will be HU against the short stack with what should be a favorite to knock him out and add to your chip total.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha! Miniraising is absolutely the worst thing you can do. A perceptive player is going to notice that, take that for weakness, and reraise over the top with any two, and YOU CANT call, even if you know hes pushing any two, b/c of the uber short stack.

Back to raptor. I dont give a $hit what ICM says about this situation. Its all about relative chip power. In other words, how much more improved is your situation going to be if you successfully steal the blinds? 1200->1500 is not much, esp with the uber short stack about to bust.

ICM is a theorhetical structure to HELP us understand sngs better, but, its not the ABSOLUTE theory.

Fold.

Anyone who folded...you honestly like the odds of getting dealt anything better in the next two hands?

POOOOOOSH!

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who folded...you honestly like the odds of getting dealt anything better in the next two hands?

POOOOOOSH!

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, there is a short stack that is about to go Bye Bye next hand.

[The Don]

If you like money you should fold.

[bluefeet]

minraise. shortie just might bail (despite getting something like 8:1) if button or SB push back - in which case you fold. so be it...he's all-in next hand and you still have close to t1000 chips. if he comes along, i call. he has to beat both of you.

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
I like a minraise here. If you get reraised by one of the bigger stacks behin you, you can reasonably assume that they have a pretty strong hand, and can fold and make a move when you are already ITM. More than likely, the two others will fold, and you will be HU against the short stack with what should be a favorite to knock him out and add to your chip total.


[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm the big stack I'm pushing any two back at a min raise.

I would probably still push here despite the really small stack. I would be a little concerned that the BB might fold his blind the the shortstack in order to keep the bubble alive.

edit: misread the hand, thought bigstack was in the BB, now I would fold.

[Karak567]

[ QUOTE ]
I like a minraise here. If you get reraised by one of the bigger stacks behin you, you can reasonably assume that they have a pretty strong hand, and can fold and make a move when you are already ITM. More than likely, the two others will fold, and you will be HU against the short stack with what should be a favorite to knock him out and add to your chip total.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I am a big stack and I see you minraise and then look down at 32o I can't get all in fast enough.

I say fold, and I do not think it is close.

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, there is a short stack that is about to go Bye Bye next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a serious mistake to assume this...

edit: oops, thought the bigstack was the BB, nevermind this is a much safer assumption

[raptor517]

before anyone else posts about miniraising, im gonna go ahead and say that its god awful. holla

[FieryJustice]

heres how I see it...If you call or minraise, any "good" big stack is going to push. Thats making a huge assumption that he is good though, which is generally wrong. So...if you push, you either win the hand and are cool or you lose the hand and have 900 left taking the bb, assuming no one calls, then you get to see who loses first between you and the other short stack. Also, one of the 2 bigger guys might wake up with a hand and give you the shaft. If you fold, the small stack will hopefully go away and even if he does double up, you still can outlast him...I would hope folding would be obvious.

[Matt R.]

I voted call. Here's why: Sure, a perceptive big stack will push with any 2, but I have no reason to think this big stack is that kind of player. Maybe at the 215's, but not necessarily here. Your A9s figures to be the best hand out among the 4, so if you fold this you greatly increase the short stack's chances of doubling up. i.e. in a 4 handed situation, you can't assume the short stack will be out this hand or the next hand. If he does double up, your BB is next, and being ITM is no longer guaranteed.

If my assumption is wrong and you're likely to get pushed off of a limp, then throw what I said out the window. If that's the case, I *think* I'd push since I really don't want to see shorty going up against 83o. etc., when the SB puts him in. It's close though... and I'm definitely not sure.

[Apathy]

I bet almost everyone will say fold, but I like pushing, why? cause it's what all the cool kids do.

Remember Apathy's Sng theorum, coming in third is like kissing your sister.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
before anyone else posts about miniraising, im gonna go ahead and say that its god awful. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

i sincerely disagree. i do not see a problem with this.

button (for the sake of arguement) pushes.
he pushes because a) he has a hand, or b) because you "can't call".
.
will BB call his last t90 getting 8.5:1?

if the answer is no, then you fold. he's AI next hand. even if in the remote chance it folds to you guys next hand and you double him up...you can still carry t575 having cleared the blinds.

if the answer is yes, then it's an easy call for you. if button pushed because of "a", BB stands a great chance of busting. if button pushed because of "b", you stand a great chance to nearly double-up in the side-pot. you are only not finishing ITM if BB beats both of you (yeah, that'd suck).

----- if you get no resistance from big stacks, you take a very favorable hand against BB's random holding.

granted, WITH a push from behind, AND a fold from BB - you take a 'fold into the money' posture which absolutely blows. but there would have to be an extraordinary set of circumstances for him not to bust in within 4-5 hands.

how is this so bad????

holla /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet almost everyone will say fold, but I like pushing, why? cause it's what all the cool kids do.


[/ QUOTE ]

This may just be my slective memory but....

I remember being in this exact same situation countless times and it seems like everytime I fold and leave the dirty work up to the SB it backfires. Either the SB folds or he has some crap hand and doubles the shortstack through. Invariably I end up busting fourth and go back to that hand and regret not playing it.

That said I still probably fold, but pushing doesn't seem that bad.

[hashi92]

fold

if u call or push u may end of trippling up the short stack. with the amount of chips that u have u should be able to easily wait him out. once your in the money let the craziness begin.

[bluefeet]

...and another thing....

the 'i better fold here...big stack will take care of shortie' is usually a bad idea IMO. how much fun is it to have it fold around to SB, who does not have the hand to take out BB? then just for fun, it folds around next hand and he's pushing into YOUR BB!

not good.

#1 - big stack isn't always "tee-hee-hee, watch me push out that minraise punk". i don't know that 'keeping the bubble alive' is commonly practiced at this level. i believe all 3 parties have a shared interest in getting shortie out of there. you're offering to do it -- despite chip problems of your own.

#2 - hmmmmmmm, thought there was a #2.....it'll come to me

EDIT: oh yeah -- worst case: this hand is over with him holding t90 & you holding t875. being able to survive at least another lap around the track, are you REALLY any worse off before this hand? EDIT take2: ok, maybe not 'worst' case /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Ps. for those that vote "fold", do you push this if your SB?? if so, then 'doubling/tripling him up' cannot be a concern of yours.

[1C5]

Min raise would be ok in a different situation but you just don't have enough chips here to min raise to 400 and then fold to a big stack's push.

I don't like pushing here with the small stack so short.

Folding or calling would be my preferred plays here and calling would just be done to have a bigger chance to knock out the small stack if the big stack plays the hand in a way that lets you check it down.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who folded...you honestly like the odds of getting dealt anything better in the next two hands?

POOOOOOSH!

[/ QUOTE ]


Uh, there is a short stack that is about to go Bye Bye next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

****, i misread this hand too.

I thought u were the shortstack.

LMAO, sorry...fold.

[The Yugoslavian]

I voted thinking that the short guy really had 1200....so my vote was retarded.

I like calling, actually. You make sure the small stack doesn't get a walk...and the times you get reraised allin and shorty folds I don't mind having invested that 200 to make sure shorty loses 200. The toughest spot is if you get reraised allin and shorty calls. I'd leave this one up to reads but I don't mind calling or folding there.

call > fold > push > minraise

Yugoslav

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet almost everyone will say fold, but I like pushing, why? cause it's what all the cool kids do.

Remember Apathy's Sng theorum, coming in third is like kissing your sister.

[/ QUOTE ]

what if yer adopted and yer sisters hot? would it be ok then? holla

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
...and another thing....

the 'i better fold here...big stack will take care of shortie' is usually a bad idea IMO. how much fun is it to have it fold around to SB, who does not have the hand to take out BB? then just for fun, it folds around next hand and he's pushing into YOUR BB!

not good.

#1 - big stack isn't always "tee-hee-hee, watch me push out that minraise punk". i don't know that 'keeping the bubble alive' is commonly practiced at this level. i believe all 3 parties have a shared interest in getting shortie out of there. you're offering to do it -- despite chip problems of your own.

#2 - hmmmmmmm, thought there was a #2.....it'll come to me

EDIT: oh yeah -- worst case: this hand is over with him holding t90 & you holding t875. being able to survive at least another lap around the track, are you REALLY any worse off before this hand? EDIT take2: ok, maybe not 'worst' case /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Ps. for those that vote "fold", do you push this if your SB?? if so, then 'doubling/tripling him up' cannot be a concern of yours.

[/ QUOTE ]


alright dammit - a cooool menthol under a full moon cleared some thinking (i think). i suppose calling IS better. if SB bailed for ANY reason, it'd save you t200. if he comes along against WHATEVER...you have the same net effect.

calling is better than pushing/folding though. how bout THAT? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet almost everyone will say fold, but I like pushing, why? cause it's what all the cool kids do.

Remember Apathy's Sng theorum, coming in third is like kissing your sister.

[/ QUOTE ]

what if yer adopted and yer sisters hot? would it be ok then? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

If we are talking like Cruel Intentions here then yes, I come third ALL day.

[Xippy]

[ QUOTE ]
minraise. shortie just might bail (despite getting something like 8:1) if button or SB push back - in which case you fold. so be it...he's all-in next hand and you still have close to t1000 chips. if he comes along, i call. he has to beat both of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I agree with miniraise, but i like your idea of giving shorty the possibility of folding based on the hope that you're about to make a mistake. What about limping? It might be interpreted as greater strength, the big stack might decide to extend the bubble and fold, and if he does push then shorty faces a very similar opportunity to make a mistake, and you've saved 200 chips when you fold.

If you just fold, what are the chances that the SB will fold to extend the bubble with no FE (not that he probably cares about losing that many chips)? I'd hate to fold and then see that happen.

I'd never think to do this in a game, but I guess that's why I'm reading instead of playing now.

X

[Matt R.]

I like this idea. I almost edited my above post to say something similar actually. But where is the picture of the hot chick with big breasts that I've grown accustomed to? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
I like this idea. I almost edited my above post to say something similar actually. But where is the picture of the hot chick with big breasts that I've grown accustomed to? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm like really tired and accidentally posted about strategy (not even coerced by Unarmed /images/graemlins/wink.gif )? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Oh...btw...here's something for your bad beats:

http://thuliumxp.free.fr/cpg132/albums/Anastacia_Newkirk/digi_S458_Anastacia.jpg

Yugoslav

[FlyingSumo]

I find this situation really interesting. As I am a newbie, I would really like to hear "the answer" and why. Personally I have a hard time seeing how you gonna outlast the shortstack if he doubles up this hand, so I am leaning towards pushing.

[bones]

I think calling opens up the dream scenario for the big stack: You limp, he pushes, BB now is forced to choose between taking the enormous odds the pot is laying him or folding, hoping you'll bust out before him.

The more I think about this hand, the more it interests me. A thinking BB would realize that the big stack is pushing any 2 and you won't call without an absolute monster, so he really can't fold here and now has a shot at tripling up against "any 2" range and being almost even with you in chips.

I guess this is more the dream scenario for the BB.

I dislike pushing because there is no reason to risk making the money vs two unknown hands when your first to go.
A big stack could call and he could fold hoping for you to bust and he would limp into the money.

I dislike folding because you have a good chance to have the best hand out of all four and an even better chance just verse the small blind.

Raptor already said min raising was the worst, so...

I like calling because if one of the bigger stacks has a better hand they will let you know with a raise. If no one has a good hand they will just fold or call letting you see the flop and deciding whats best from there. Also by calling you would only have to put 290 total in the pot if he pushes instead of 400 by min raising without a worry of a reraise because his raise is not a full bet. Also by calling you put the pressure on the BB because if the big stack pushes he will have to act first deciding to fold or to call, which I think he will always call, no point in folding and leaving yourself with 90 so UTG can fold right behind you and bust you next hand. If does call you can decide to call aswell and end up:
1. beating the big stack and him.
2. both of you losing to the big stack and making the money.
3. having him beat you but you beat the big stack.
4. having him beat you and the big stack and busting out of the money.
I think calling gives you the best options out of all four options.

[bennies]

I like the call. We can spare 200 for the cause but not 400.
Also, it seems like a good thing to have position on shorty throughout the hand. If a big stack decides to push at some point and shorty folds, we can do the same.

[Ixnert]

My initial reaction was insta-fold, because I think a call or minraise is getting pushed over by any thinking big stack (and some level of thought becomes my default assumption at the 50s), and A9 just doesn't seem quite good enough to risk bubbling out on. But I'm liking the call now specifically to ensure the over-the-top raise and that BB won't get a walk.

What I'm wondering now is, what if I look down and find wired kings or aces? How do people like a call/minraise there specifically to incite that reraise and a likely BB call, where a push might likely just take the blinds plus BB's last 90 chips? Or is this just too fancy?

[bennies]

Even with AA I would like to take this pot without the involvement of any big stacks. I don't want to race them, even with a 75/25 advantage. So I'd push QQ+.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
before anyone else posts about miniraising, im gonna go ahead and say that its god awful. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Change BB's stack to 195 before posting...How much does that change your feeling:

a) little bit, little bit
b) huh?
c) it changes my feeling
d) War of 1812

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
before anyone else posts about miniraising, im gonna go ahead and say that its god awful. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Change BB's stack to 195 before posting...How much does that change your feeling:

a) little bit, little bit
b) huh?
c) it changes my feeling
d) War of 1812

[/ QUOTE ]

War of 1812

Seriously though, if it was a pure SB/BB confrontation with two random hands, then by definition, the BB is 50/50 to survive.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]

I like calling, actually. You make sure the small stack doesn't get a walk...and the times you get reraised allin and shorty folds I don't mind having invested that 200 to make sure shorty loses 200. The toughest spot is if you get reraised allin and shorty calls. I'd leave this one up to reads but I don't mind calling or folding there.

call > fold > push > minraise

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I voted call for the same reason as above. If Big stack pushes, I don't mind releasing my 200 to help cripple shortstack further if he folds. I'm still not certain how I'd play if bigstack pushed, SB called, and back to me.

FWIW, here's how I'd play the following hands.

1) If I had KK/QQ/JJ/TT I'd push preflop.
2) If I had AA I'd raise to 600
3) If I had AK I'd just call. If bigstack pushed, and SB called, I'd call. If SB folded, I'd release.

I really don't care much for A9 here. And frankly, even if we triple up shorty, and we lose our 200 chips, we've still got him covered 2:1.

Scuba

Maybe my assumption of the big stack having a solid hand if he comes over the top is off. After a minraise, the big stack will either: 1. Be asleep at the switch and fold OR 2. Push any 2 to bully the small stacks. If the bigger stacks are asleep at the switch, you have guaranteed that the shortie puts his money in with any 2 as a proabably dog to you, or folds the blinds to you, adding to your stack and leaving him unable to complete the small blind. If you run into a knowledgable big stack who pushes in, this isn't a bad thing either. Since you have position on the shortie, you will know if he is putting his tourny on the line, so your decision will be cut and dry. If he folds, he has to be all in on the next hand preflop, and the 800 some chips you have left should be able to hold out until he disappears, and if he goes in, you too can move in and hope to double up off the big stack. The only scenario where you are knocked out in 4th, is that the BB, who has to play any 2, beats both your A9o, which is better than most 2 card hands and the big stacks random hand, but the big stacks random hand beats your A9o. This will happen only around 1 time in 8, but the other times you will either double up to 2600 and eliminate the short stack, or nearly double up to 2000 while the short stack only has 900.
Maybe I'm an idiot and my logic is full of holes, but if I am I would appreciate someone telling me what they are.

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
If you call or minraise, any "good" big stack is going to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey FJ. I understand why a smart big stack would push after a minraise, but not so sure against a call. I see that he would be getting >2:1 to take out the short stack, but I suspect it also has to do with the fact that even if shorty wins the big stack will have the table set up very nicely to steal a lot more. Is this right? Is there more to this?

[AleoMagus]

Yeah, I voted call too and even felt kinda silly when it looked like the vast majority disagreed with me. Now people are talking about it, so maybe I haven't completely gone off the deep end.

Even in the 55s, and certainly at the lower stakes, I see a lot of spontaneous teaming up on the shortstack.

It wouldn't surprise me at all here to call and see button and SB just call behind. Then, it wouldn't surprise me to see BB end up all-in and all action ending with the hand checked to showdown.

Of course, that said, I also wouldn't be surprised to see somebody go all-in on the flop with the dry side pot, drive everyone else out, and show no hand and no draw to quadruple up the shortstack.

Regards
Brad S

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I voted call too and even felt kinda silly when it looked like the vast majority disagreed with me. Now people are talking about it, so maybe I haven't completely gone off the deep end.

Even in the 55s, and certainly at the lower stakes, I see a lot of spontaneous teaming up on the shortstack.

It wouldn't surprise me at all here to call and see button and SB just call behind. Then, it wouldn't surprise me to see BB end up all-in and all action ending with the hand checked to showdown.

Of course, that said, I also wouldn't be surprised to see somebody go all-in on the flop with the dry side pot, drive everyone else out, and show no hand and no draw to quadruple up the shortstack.

Regards
Brad S

[/ QUOTE ]

That's some funny stuff here Brad. No strategy, just observation.

To the one poster who asked, what is the "right" answer. Frankly, I don't think there is one. Everyone has their style. I think the one thing that is clear here, and even raptor was quick to flesh out. But raising is the worst of the 4 possible decisions.

I liked the ensuing discussion this hand had. And I too felt like Brad did after I voted call. I was in the minority. But perhaps that's a good thing.

I agree with Apathy too. Pushing has very strong merits. And if you're called by either of the two bigger stacks, you are very much likely behind at that point, so it's disappointing if you go out when shorty has less than 100 chips. (In fact, this happened to me last night with A9, so maybe that's why I lean towards call now).

And frankly, for the meak point of view. I don't think folding is that horrible. Even if shorty is given a free pass on this round, you've still got him covered 3:1.

In the end, I like calling the best. It's a 200 chip investment into one of 4 (most likely) outcomes.

A) You end up HU with shorty
B) You end up in a 3 way with shorty (including SB)
C) Bigstack pushes, and forces shorty in, and you fold to watch some likely meaningful battle in which shorty has a 50/50 chance to survive
D) Bigstack pushes, and shorty folds, and is likely out in the next hand.

3.5 out these 4 scenarios is very attractive.

[adanthar]

First of all, I think we can all agree that pushing may actually be more godawful than minraising. (It really is. Do the math.)

Second, I've minraised in similar situations before and will do it again in the future but it requires that the big stack (as well as the other guy because he acts later than the big stack) not know anything about poker. Oddly enough, most people *don't* know anything about poker, so you're good there. That said, your hand is a shade too weak and there are two people that are required to be bad here, not one, so I probably don't do it here. What I will point out is that there is a tendency to say 'well if I were the big stack I'd push 32o'...but you're not him. The resteal with any two on the bubble move is something you have to learn and isn't intuitive - if they both suck you should be more confident doing this sometimes and I'd do it almost every time in the $11's because they won't ever play back.

Anyway, that leaves calling or folding. Calling has its merits but it's funny how much people like it when almost all of the reasons it's good can also be applied to a minraise. Here, we're relying on the short stack to call a big stack push, but again, this assumes (either) big stack knows something about poker. It's far more likely that the SB will just say 'oh hey, I have JTo, I'll overcall' and set up lots of flops where he bets into you with nothing, BB folds and you have to fold top pair.

So, in this *exact* spot, with no reads at all, I fold. If they have 2+2 names, I fold quickly. If they are known to be weak/tight, I minraise. If this is a $11, I minraise quickly. If they're 85/0/0 in PT, I call. This question doesn't have one answer, and the danger lies in giving your opponents too much credit.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
To the one poster who asked, what is the "right" answer. Frankly, I don't think there is one. Everyone has their style.

[/ QUOTE ]

God, is this ever refreshing to hear sometimes. I always find it funny how sometimes a question comes up that is truly close. Several good players are on opposite sides of a question, yet often they cannot acknowledge that the decision is extremely close and that the other guy is not a complete idiot for taking a different line.

[Homer315]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe my assumption of the big stack having a solid hand if he comes over the top is off. After a minraise, the big stack will either: 1. Be asleep at the switch and fold OR 2. Push any 2 to bully the small stacks. If the bigger stacks are asleep at the switch, you have guaranteed that the shortie puts his money in with any 2 as a proabably dog to you, or folds the blinds to you, adding to your stack and leaving him unable to complete the small blind. If you run into a knowledgable big stack who pushes in, this isn't a bad thing either. Since you have position on the shortie, you will know if he is putting his tourny on the line, so your decision will be cut and dry. If he folds, he has to be all in on the next hand preflop, and the 800 some chips you have left should be able to hold out until he disappears, and if he goes in, you too can move in and hope to double up off the big stack. The only scenario where you are knocked out in 4th, is that the BB, who has to play any 2, beats both your A9o, which is better than most 2 card hands and the big stacks random hand, but the big stacks random hand beats your A9o. This will happen only around 1 time in 8, but the other times you will either double up to 2600 and eliminate the short stack, or nearly double up to 2000 while the short stack only has 900.
Maybe I'm an idiot and my logic is full of holes, but if I am I would appreciate someone telling me what they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this post a lot. It's well thought out, and I agree with it, especially with the lack or any reads as explained above. I actually voted to push before reading any of the posts, but probably because I'm sick of the recent strings of 3rd place finishes I've had, and the number of times I've seen the small blind here fold or do something stupid like double up the short stack. Excellent discussion.

[fnord_too]

I could see myself doing any of the actions depending on the table dynamic. I put call here because a lot of times the hand will end up with no raise to the BB who will raise his last 90 then everyone calls. The real important read is on the huge stack who acts right behind me, if he has been raising every hand I just muck this, if he is mainly folding, and sb is not likely to raise w/o the goods, I call. If I think button and sb will raise if I come in light but fold if I push, I will push.

In short, this is a big "it depends" hand for me.

[11t]

Doing anything but folding here is awful.

EDIT: When I say that I mean versus readless opponents or versus anybody who is decent.

[Hendricks433]

I think Ive folded in this spot everytime to just be pissed off cause everyone folds around and sb doubled him. Of course I dont play the $55's so I dont know what the opponents are like. I dont think limping is horrible. But its either call or fold for me. Min Raising is horrible I think but also seems like some people are giving the Big Stack too much credit that hell for sure push a min raise.

[freemoney]

i think just calling is easily best, this hand gets interesting if BB has liek 550 though.

[bugstud]

before reading I am going to say limp with the idea of a group call and checkdown type hand