QJo coldcalls a raise Party 6 max

[surfdoc]

I really didn't think we needed a thread on this but maybe we do. The discussion started here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3153157&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1) when I made a snide response to a play TSP made in the 2+2 6max 15/30 game. There was then this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3160524&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1) post by skp where he states that there is nothing wrong with this play but admits he could be "way off". I am starting to wonder myself but I think that although it may not be a huge mistake it is a definite mistake.

Just so we are all clear the scenario is that you coldcall a 2+2ers utg raise from the CO or button in a full 6 max game with QJo. The players behind you are all very solid playing TAGs as well.

What do you think?

[Surfbullet]

I think coldcalling QJo after a 2+2er UTG/UTG+1 raises is foolish - QJ is the very lowest most 2+2ers will raise UTG+1, let alone UTG. There are some a few % looser but not enough to warrant the CC. Why call with a hand that isn't ahead of his hand range, and lets others in behind him, with the possibility of a reraise?

Surf

[wheelz]

I honestly don't know what's going on half the time in that forum. Plays that seem obviously bad to me are often praised as great or standard... had a normal party clown cold called there with QJo we'd call him a fish, but when TSP does it suddenly everyone's second guessing themself. I don't care how high he plays, that can't be the correct play.

[Jeff W]

Cold calling QJo always sucks.

[PassiveCaller]

It sucks. 3-bet more liberally if they are raising that light, don't start cold calling short handed.

High Card, Initiative and, Position (stealing from Nate and the archives) and this is sorely lacking in 2 of the 3 against early position raisers even if they are raising with less then usual. If the range is that far off (which I doubt it was) and they've become total LAG then perhaps QJo should be 3-bet but otherwise it's not winning poker and definitely not a good idea against 2+2'ers.

[PassiveCaller]

[ QUOTE ]
Cold calling QJo always sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Zactly.

[Barry]

[ QUOTE ]
Just so we are all clear the scenario is that you coldcall a 2+2ers utg raise from the CO or button in a full 6 max game with QJo. The players behind you are all very solid playing TAGs as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

While if everyone was playing "real poker" you would be correct. However, you're making an assumption here that may not be very accurate.

These games have been typically played at lower stakes then most regularly play and most folks are there to have some fun and share some laughs. Also given the lineup FPS and rampant aggression abounds. So in the particular case in hand TSP could very likely been ahead or in a coin flip situation. Plus he had position. I might not have done it, but I don't think that it was awful.

[PassiveCaller]

But if they are playing that cruddy then go ahead and punish them with 3-bets. Shorthanded is a lot about initiative too and cold calling with so-so hands against aggressive players requires hitting.

[surfdoc]

Sure, I guess I could have put in the caveat that this game was played in a goofy fashion because everyone was playing below their usual limit.

[me454555]

I prefer to 3 bet or fold. I think taking control of this hand early is very key. If an A flops, it will be very hard for your opponent to call down w/K high and if a K flops its very tough for your opponent to call down w/A high. On top of that, if other tags are in the game I'd rather them fold pf than deal w/them on flop.

Calling IMHO is the worst option b/c your hand is likely behind your opponents and you will have to hit the flop to win. Your opponent will almost always bet the flop and most flops will leave you with a tough decision when calculating outs.

[Warik]

ugh. I hate calling QJo cold. Granted I'm still a newb in the 6-max department, but I fold that hand 99.99% of the time against a raise unless it's a possible steal raise and I'm in the blinds... and even then it's a 3-bet or fold. Easily dominated by legitimate raising hands and almost no showdown value if you miss the flop.

If I'm wrong, I doubt I'm missing out on a lot.

[Michael Davis]

Honestly, I coldcalled an UTG raise from a solid but drinking 2+2er in a 4-8 game the other day with QJo and I think it's probably fine if the open-raising standards are loosened up enough. Even if they are, I like it more as a coldcall than a threebet, because you are still more likely to be crushed than to be crushing anyone, but have a hand that is worth playing, and coldcalling allows you to represent a wider range of hands. If you threebet, for example, you are opening yourself up to getting punked on an 876 or similar flops. If you just call, you can raise about every flop, are clearly representing a smallish pocket pair, and force the other guy out.

This game left some pretty good opportunities for floating IMO.

-Michael

[Turning Stone Pro]

The number of times I would make that play in a regular game when I knew the pf raiser was anything other than a maniac, or on tilt?: never.

The number of times I would make that play in a 2+2 game that I am hosting for the purpse of having a good time and when everyone is playing very differently from how they normally would with a chance to take out some of the top players I have ever met with a marginal holding with a marginal call?: everytime.

I wasn't there to win, I was there to play.

TSP