Using stats at 3/6?

[IGMorton]

I have played my first 30,000 hands of 2/4 and 3/6 6-max without using stats. It's time for me to incorporate them. I have 2 or 3 tabled enough hands without them that i don't fear i'll become one of those guys who plays by stats alone. Correct me if i'm wrong here, but it looks like only vpip, pfr and af(postflop) are going to be of much use at 3/6.

These tables are so loose with limpers than nobody gets much opportunity to steal / defend blinds. It took about 10,000 hands for my blind numbers to stabilize at 3/6. Thus, i don't see much reliability in using opponent's ASB, FBB, etc.

Likewise, agression by street would take forever to converge. Many players who may become good players one day have moved up from 1/2 and may be quite lost. I presume they, like myself, are experimenting with turn-checkraising, calling down maniacs, blind defense tactics etc.

WSD and W$SD may converge a bit faster than some of the others, but are very dependent on how hot someone is running. I'm not sure they tell me as much about a person's playstyle as his results. I think i'll skip them too.

I've set poker-office display to show VPIP/PFR/AFT/#HANDS. I have it assign icons after 100 hands. I'm comfortable using vpip and pfr to assist my decisions preflop. How can i use just these 3 numbers to assist decisions postflop in the no-fold 'em land of PP 3/6?

[ArturiusX]

I just use VPIP/PFR, and write a ton of notes. If you do that, you'll never have a problem with a read.

[aslowjoe]

I like to include WSD% in those stats also. Sometimes it will sway my decision to bluff or semi bluff.

[IGMorton]

Can extreme AF(postflop) numbers be usefull? Assume you have 100+ hands on a guy. I understand the dynamics of the ratio here. but, surely a player with numbers at the extremes is more likely to be predictable.

if i'm torn in my decision making process and my previous reads are long forgotten because i haven't seen this player in a while or i didn't take notes: what do these extreme numbers tell me:

1. tight villan is vpip 20%
a. - af is below .5
b. - af is above 2.5

2. semil-loose villan is vpip 37.5%
a. - af is below .5
b. - af is above 2.5

3. loose villan is vpip 55%
a. - af is below .5
b. - af is above 2.5


For example:

vs. 1a - can i fold more with middle pair after he turnraises?

vs. 3b - can i call down more with TPWK?

etc...

[Silverback]

Get the stats showing on your table,

Yes they give some help, but you'll soon see one table your vpip/pfr 15/7 and another you might be 36/24, whereas overall you know yourself to be 23/15

I use it as a rough guide, I do look at ASB and post flop AF, but also bearing in mind how few hands I have on each player, but if someone has AF 4 or 5+ its obvious they are over aggressive


I find $3/$6 is not so much no foldem holdem as compared to $1/$2 and $2/$4,
Ive actually been thinking of increasing my vpip and adding in more blind steals and iso raises, which dont work at $1/$2 /$2/$4, but seem much more likely at $3/$6 purely because the tables ive been at have been that much tighter, and ive been varying my table selection.

[Silverback]

I dont think you can relate a players vpip% to there post flop play, as in I think they would play roughly the same if the same AF,,,,plus its not so much the vpip, a 20vpip 0%pfr is totally different from a 20vpip 14% pfr player

2.5 the player is more likely raising draws, bottom pair overcard kicker, so it depends on the board as to how strong you think your mid pair is.

Low .5 aggression factor when they raise the turn they normally have good strong hand, I dont like folding a good top pair, I think thats weak, Id call down even if my kicker is a bit weak. Maybe thats a leak for me.
Mid pair is likely to be beat, id most likely fold.

[IGMorton]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think you can relate a players vpip% to there post flop play...

[/ QUOTE ]

i was thinking... given two players: 1 guy with 40% vpip and AF 3.0 and a 2nd guy with 20$ vpip and AF=3.0. it seems the first player must be semi-bluffing more with flush / straight draws or betting middle pairs hard with at most 5 outs, etc to keep the same agression level. can't i play middle pair much more agressively against the that sort of guy?

now look at two players with 40% vpip and 20% vpip, but both with AF=.5. the first guy is probably peeling a lot with weak draws whereas the 2nd guy will have top pair more often... so that 2nd guy appears to be less inlined to push a good hand than the first (otherwise the 2nd guy would have a higher af).

[wackjob]

I played over 6K hands at 3/6 & the stats were definately useful.

[Willluck]

I use fold to flop bet%, fold BB to steal%, and attempt to steal%

[Luzion]

[ QUOTE ]
I use fold to flop bet%, fold BB to steal%, and attempt to steal%

[/ QUOTE ]

What program do you use? Playerview? Or you just Gametime++ and have a long series of numbers?

[IGMorton]

poker office has an awesome HU display. It's highly tweakable, but also shows pot odds at all times as well as each action every player took on each betting round.