Calling AI with QQ Preflop?!?

[Mercman572]

Villains third hand I've observed. I've played about 10 hands and have been very aggressive due to the type of cards I'd been getting, but haven't shown down. I don't know if this matters but villain saw me take down 2 pots out of the c3 or 4 he's seen.

Party full ring $.5BB
Mp2 calls, Mp3 (villain) calls Hero (Co) makes ot $3...button calls, SB calls, Mp2 folds, Villain Reraises all in for $50. Hero...?


could be underpai or just pure bluff who calls this?

[Mercman572]

too easy to reply?

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
too easy to reply?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, just tough.

It really depends on the day for me.

[GoCubsGo]

I would say his bet looks like QQ, but you have it, so that's unlikely. He probably has AK, AA, or KK. I think you're dominated 2/3 of the time. If you see him do it again with trash, then make note of it, but with no reads I'm assuming he has a very strong hand. That's just my opinion though. Others may think folding QQ preflop to an unknown is too weak.

[gol4pro]

I'm not trying to think like a fish here... but only the worst will bet 50$ to win 4. And we know who those idiots are anyway, so we call here against them.

3rd hand, I muck, and keep an eye on him. Probably AA.

[btetreau]

assuming that you have close to a full stack, it's a fold i think. pot is too small.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
assuming that you have close to a full stack, it's a fold i think. pot is too small.

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I insta-folded this. But on my other table a similar unknown pushed from the big blind in a similar large raise with multiple callers situation. He was called, the pusher had K7 off and won with two pair. That had me think that maybe I should be calling this. Usually a late position limp does not mean AA-QQ since they would have raised themselves, but I do see it sometimes. I was just confused and feeling a bit weaktight since it would be a bad start of my night to get stacked by AA

[BZ_Zorro]

Tough one, but with Villain's full stack I'd never call this against an unknown.

[jcmack13]

I could be very extremely super wrong about this, but in my experience with low-no-limit players, i would see this as a "please don't call" bet, which always makes me want to call. If he's been observing your aggressive nature, he could be waiting to do this with anything decent. TT-88, AQ or AJ...it seems to me like the massive overbet is an odd line with a true monster. I'd think seriously about calling, and probably would. If he does have aces, then he's either thinking one level higher or lower than I gave him credit for. One level lower if he just sees big cards and thinks big bet, one level higher if he expects me to recognize the overbet as suspicious and unusual and therefore call.

If I call and he's got me crushed, oh well, make a note and reload. Hands like this are the reason to keep a deep bankroll.


Edit: Hang on, just noticed it was a limp-reraise. This does shift its position on the 'call-fold' spectrum, but does not make it clearly one or the other. My post assumed a reraise from someone with position.

[theben]

i usually fold QQ preflop against a full stacked push, but i always take some time to consider calling.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
I could be very extremely super wrong about this, but in my experience with low-no-limit players, i would see this as a "please don't call" bet, which always makes me want to call. Hang on, just noticed it was a limp-reraise. This does shift its position on the 'call-fold' spectrum

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought after I folded that this may have been a clear call. Who limps AA or KK in mp3? To me it seems on looking back that he saw 12 bucks in calls and thought he could steal them and he did. I think AA makes it 15 or 20 rather than pushes, or bets it preflop himself. Anyway glad to see there is no clear move here

[swolfe]

instacall...it takes a very tricky player to limp after another limper with AA/KK. i'd expect to see 66-88, maybe as low as 33 here hoping that you'll fold or at worst have overs...

this is an especially easy call because of your table image in the few hands he's been there. i'm assuming that you raised preflop with at least one of those?

[excession]

'He probably has AK, AA, or KK. I think you're dominated 2/3 of the time.'

Don't want to be picky but 16 ways to make AK, 6 to make AA, 6 to make KK means domination 12/28ths of the time (43% rather than 67%) You would be 19% to win. The other 16/28ths (57% of the time) you actually have an average edge over AK of about 7% or so.

Overall if you limit his hands to AK, AA or KK (and assume that he would always limp push all three) you are about 40% to win the pot. (32% of the time your QQ would meet AK and hold up and 8% of the time it would meet AA or KK and luck out).

[BigF]

[ QUOTE ]
instacall...it takes a very tricky player to limp after another limper with AA/KK. i'd expect to see 66-88, maybe as low as 33 here hoping that you'll fold or at worst have overs...

[/ QUOTE ]

They are not tricky. They are just bad.

One time I had QQ out of blinds and raised. Got reraised by this LP limper. He limped after 3 limpers so he can't have AA/KK right? Wrong, he had AA.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
instacall...it takes a very tricky player to limp after another limper with AA/KK. i'd expect to see 66-88, maybe as low as 33 here hoping that you'll fold or at worst have overs...

this is an especially easy call because of your table image in the few hands he's been there. i'm assuming that you raised preflop with at least one of those?

[/ QUOTE ]

or a very stupid player (turned out his Vpip was around 60 after 100 hands and PFR15% so this would have been an easy call)

and I had been raising the majority of my hands preflop since it was a tight table and what started out as some 56s in lp raises to steal and get a lag image turned into AK hands and AA. Part of my fear was that the first caller in late position (since he was tight) might have overcalled preflop with a better hand expecting to see a heads up flop.

[NickPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
instacall...it takes a very tricky player to limp after another limper with AA/KK. i'd expect to see 66-88, maybe as low as 33 here hoping that you'll fold or at worst have overs...

True, but if Hero is raising a lot of pots, maybe he limped with AA/KK knowing/hoping Hero would raise.


this is an especially easy call because of your table image in the few hands he's been there. i'm assuming that you raised preflop with at least one of those?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
'He probably has AK, AA, or KK. I think you're dominated 2/3 of the time.'

Don't want to be picky but 16 ways to make AK, 6 to make AA, 6 to make KK means domination 12/28ths of the time (43% rather than 67%) You would be 19% to win. The other 16/28ths (57% of the time) you actually have an average edge over AK of about 7% or so.

Overall if you limit his hands to AK, AA or KK (and assume that he would always limp push all three) you are about 40% to win the pot. (32% of the time your QQ would meet AK and hold up and 8% of the time it would meet AA or KK and luck out).

[/ QUOTE ]

what if you include any lower PP and or suited Ace in his hand range? of course this makes it an easy call no? i just can't do that percentage thing.

Thanks for a great discussion though guys

[Rduke55]

I'd never call this. What are you ahead of with a huge limp-reraise with that? At the Party tables I see people do this all the time with AA.
Let the $3 go and get him next time.

[excession]

Well it isn't just good enough to put him on a hand range and multiply by the chances of him being on each hand - this play might be quite standard for this player with AA or KK and he might mix his AK up by limp-pushing with it one time in three for example.. that would make the call look bad again..

Personally I just think - 'oh bollox but at least he's a lousy player', fold and wait for a better spot..I'm not likely to be way ahead and I have faith that he'll drop his stack soon enough...

[UOPokerPlayer]

call it. You probably look like a big bully. Also it's rare to see the big overbet with kk or aa, they probably want value.

[ScottTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]

Personally I just think - 'oh bollox but at least he's a lousy player', fold and wait for a better spot..I'm not likely to be way ahead and I have faith that he'll drop his stack soon enough...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are all in preflop with a very good chance of being way ahead because the guy is a lousy player, there aren't many better spots than that.

[GoCubsGo]

[ QUOTE ]
Also it's rare to see the big overbet with kk or aa, they probably want value.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what they'd like you to think. I've seen two open pushes from UTG since last night. Last night I called with AKs only to lose to KK. Today's open pusher had AA. Seems nobody likes to play poker.

[excession]

I dont think I've a very good chance of being ahead here.
I think I'm likely behind against most SSNL players who pull this stunt.

It's still rather a rustic play though - that's what I meant by 'bad player'.

Incidentally looking back in PT on all re-raises pre-flop against me when I raised with QQ since March on the $50 and $100 NL tables, 75% of them were made with AA or KK (and over 90% of all-in pushes were) - that's why it's right to lay it down IMHO...

[ScottTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]

Incidentally looking back in PT on all re-raises pre-flop against me when I raised with QQ since March on the $50 and $100 NL tables, 75% of them were made with AA or KK (and over 90% of all-in pushes were) - that's why it's right to lay it down IMHO...

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Yeah but a regular reraise is very different from a limp in MP after another limper then a reraise. That's a donk play. No good player makes that play. That's why in THIS particular hand I think I have a good chance of being ahead. All reraises are not created equal /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah but a regular reraise is very different from a limp in MP after another limper then a reraise. That's a donk play. No good player makes that play. That's why in THIS particular hand I think I have a good chance of being ahead. All reraises are not created equal /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

those are my thoughts. Anything in your database on LP limpreraises excession? open pushing I would not call as another player said it is usually AK or AA. However I just really feel his eyes must've lit up seeing $12 from cold callers since after my raise he was last to act. Next time I'll call one of these and let you guys know how it goes /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Komodo]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
instacall...it takes a very tricky player to limp after another limper with AA/KK. i'd expect to see 66-88, maybe as low as 33 here hoping that you'll fold or at worst have overs...

this is an especially easy call because of your table image in the few hands he's been there. i'm assuming that you raised preflop with at least one of those?

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like a call to me too. We are 40-60 in the worst case scenario, and he probably does that play with other hands as well.

Hand 1: 40.2071 % [ 00.38 00.02 ] { QQ }
Hand 2: 59.7929 % [ 00.58 00.02 ] { AA-QQ, AKs, AKo }