For once I'm confused on the SB. Give me a better line. (33 hand)

[Slim Pickens]

OK, I realize this is probably obvious, but I'm really torn here between making a standard raise to about 450 or pushing. It's right on the "10 BB" threshold. My opponent has been tight so far. The flop gets really interesting because I actually picked the worst possible preflop move. I'll post that later.

Party Poker No-Limit $30+3 Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t840)
Button (t730)
Hero (t1750)
BB (t1450)
UTG (t1295)
MP (t1935)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero ???

[Karak567]

Yeah but villain is under 10x BB, I poooosh it.

[HighestCard]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but villain is under 10x BB, I poooosh it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why give villain, A. an easy call with a pp or ace x, or B. a nice 60/40 that would cripple slim C. a very easy fold.

I'm thinking of a t400 raise here, folding to a push by villain. It lets villain know you have something, without giving the apperance your trying to steal IMO.

[bluefeet]

/images/graemlins/wink.gif reminds me of this one (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3160820&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1).

too good of hand to complete, too expensive to proceed post-flop on a whiff - border-line pushable.

i'm wondering how terrible completing is...playing the flop out of position (with a well disquised draw hand like this?)

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Isura]

I either raise to 375, minraise, or complete depending on the opponent. I usually don't push though.

[Karak567]

If he pushes you are getting nearly 2-1 to call.

Really think you can fold there?

[Irieguy]

If the BB is at all reasonable, this is an easy push. You have to push instead of raising another amount because of his stack size. Since he would probably come over the top of you with a slightly wider range than he would call a push with, you maintain slightly more FE by pushing.

If the BB is loose but wouldn't push against a limp with a wide range, and everybody else is a donk... you can complete here and see a flop without doing any damage to yourself.

If the BB is LAGy I would just let it go and wait a bit for the blinds to increase and the chip dynamics to change in such a way that the decisions are more cut and dried.

I don't see any way I would ever raise less than all in here, though.

Irieguy

[FlyWf]

Why give him 400 chips like that(he'll push with more than he'll call with)? Either put him allin or fold.

Betting 400 is begging for a reraise that you can't confidently call. The sub-allin raise is something I might try with QQ to induce a bluff, but KJs is not a hand that crushes anybody preflop.

[Moonsugar]

[ QUOTE ]
If the BB is at all reasonable, this is an easy push. You have to push instead of raising another amount because of his stack size. Since he would probably come over the top of you with a slightly wider range than he would call a push with, you maintain slightly more FE by pushing.

If the BB is loose but wouldn't push against a limp with a wide range, and everybody else is a donk... you can complete here and see a flop without doing any damage to yourself.

If the BB is LAGy I would just let it go and wait a bit for the blinds to increase and the chip dynamics to change in such a way that the decisions are more cut and dried.

I don't see any way I would ever raise less than all in here, though.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

[Seth Money]

I agree with Irie, the play back factor comes to my mind if you did the standard raise and make it 450. I would rather be the one making the move then getting moved in on. It all depends on the player and his tendencies but I would rather push here then not

Seth

[freemoney]

folding this is awful.

[pokergrader]

How bad is completing and folding to any BB raise, then playing poker on the flop?

[Slim Pickens]

The BB has between 9 and 10 BB, so it's close enough to be borderline (channeling Yogi Berra). I dislike pushing for the stated "give the BB an easy fold or nice 60/40 or easy call with a monster" reasoning. I disliked the min-3 BB raise since I can't really fold to a reraise knowing so little about this opponent. I called. Now watch me play the flop.

Party Poker $30+3 No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t840)
Button (t730)
Hero (t1750)
BB (t1450)
UTG (t1295)
MP (t1935)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t300) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t300</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t600</font>, Hero ????

[freemoney]

much much better than folding.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
The BB has between 9 and 10 BB, so it's close enough to be borderline (channeling Yogi Berra). I dislike pushing for the stated "give the BB an easy fold or nice 60/40 or easy call with a monster" reasoning. I disliked the min-3 BB raise since I can't really fold to a reraise knowing so little about this opponent. I called. Now watch me play the flop.

Party Poker $30+3 No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t840)
Button (t730)
Hero (t1750)
BB (t1450)
UTG (t1295)
MP (t1935)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t300) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t300</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t600</font>, Hero ????

[/ QUOTE ]

Push. What else were you hoping for?

Edit: I don't really like you betting out 300 here. I'd bet around 150, and see what happens. The 300 bet looks like a bit of a bluff, so lots of hands are probabably raising (although the minraise is a little scary). So, I think you are ahead and you should move in.

[freemoney]

are you really thinking about anything but pushing?

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
are you really thinking about anything but pushing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. BB showed down flopped jacks with a bad kicker. I paused for a second after that minraise though becasue nobody could possibly be that stupid with a flush draw or worse than top pair. Could they?

[freemoney]

if your thinking about folding a hand this strong, then they arent so stupid to raise with a pretty wide range of hands, even if you know hes doing it with top pair you are ahead of all except 2 pair n aj which will reraise alot of times pf.

[eastbay]

I'm not sure this applies at $33, but at $55 and $109 putting in a little less than half your stack or something randomly around there is going to have (possibly far) more fold equity than pushing. Of course you call anything to the re-raise.

I would venture to say the majority of players insta-call a push here (he wants me to fold, so I call) with a mid-weak ace, but agonize if you raise less than all-in (he doesn't want me to fold, uh-oh), and probably fold.

eastbay

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
are you really thinking about anything but pushing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. BB showed down flopped jacks with a bad kicker. I paused for a second after that minraise though becasue nobody could possibly be that stupid with a flush draw or worse than top pair. Could they?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Do not give your opponents too much credit. Not getting allin on this flop considering the pot size and preflop action is criminal. Push back so he has a chance to make a bad fold.

[KingDan]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure this applies at $33, but at $55 and $109 putting in a little less than half your stack or something randomly around there is going to have (possibly far) more fold equity than pushing. Of course you call anything to the re-raise.

I would venture to say the majority of players insta-call a push here (he wants me to fold, so I call) with a mid-weak ace, but agonize if you raise less than all-in (he doesn't want me to fold, uh-oh), and probably fold.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Say hero had a weak ace here, do you still like your raise to 400?

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure this applies at $33, but at $55 and $109 putting in a little less than half your stack or something randomly around there is going to have (possibly far) more fold equity than pushing. Of course you call anything to the re-raise.

I would venture to say the majority of players insta-call a push here (he wants me to fold, so I call) with a mid-weak ace, but agonize if you raise less than all-in (he doesn't want me to fold, uh-oh), and probably fold.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Say hero had a weak ace here, do you still like your raise to 400?

[/ QUOTE ]

A little less than half of 1750 is 400? And did you even read my post? I specifically already answered a corrected version of your question.

eastbay

[The Don]

I would raise to 400. I think that players are more likely to call if you push (than come over the top if you raise 400) because players in lower stakes are always very suspicious of 10xBB bets and dont care if calling is actually -EV because there are better spots with folding equity later on. They will respect the 400 raise more. Also I don't credit anyone at the 33s with the ability to make a play over the top with a weak hand. People playing the 33s are either 2+2 style pros (who would fold with a hand worse than KJs) or single tablers who actually care about their $33 buyin.

[elcheapo]

beats villians J6 offsuit. I would raise to 600 ( call a push) or if I hadn't done it more than 3 times (I would push). If villian had J9 well you screwed yourself for completing in the first place.