Flush Draw: I got my free card, now what?

[Dave5511]

Okay, how many times to we run into this situation every session? I'm looking for the best possible way to play a flush draw on the turn under these conditions:

It is a typical small stakes game You are in late position. 3 limpers in front of you, you have QsTs and limp, blinds complete/check. 6 to the flop:

Ks 4d 7s

You have the 2nd nut flush draw and aside from running AJ or QQ/TT not much else.

One of the blinds bets out, most or all of the limpers call, you raise in LP, everyone calls.

Turn:

8c

It check to you. There are still 4 other players in the hand.

You got your free card...what do you do? Do you bet here? Do you check to see if you hit your flush?


Var 1: The turn is instead: Ks 4d 7s 4h (pairing the board). Does your action change?

Var 2: The turn is instead: Ks 4d 7s Ac (adding inside draw). Does your action change?

Var 3: The turn is instead: Ks 4d 7s Qh (giving you 2nd pair) Does your action change?


We all see this very situation over and over and over again. I'd really like to hear some good reasons for many of the options for the variations. A lot of money changes hands on these type of draws in small stakes, and I'd like to make sure I'm on the right end of those transactions.

[shant]

I'm checking all of them.

[brazilio]

Too many people call the flop and fold the turn to make even the inside draw + fd a value bet, and your boards are too ragged for a Q or T to hold top pair against a field that big.

check. this is what the free card play is for. why pay for it? you're not trying to make second pair with it, and it's not a bluff. it's a cheap draw play, so make it cheap.

[callmedonnie]

I think I would check in every single one of those spots. And congratulations, the free card play just worked for you. For the price of an extra small bet you just got to see the river. If you are thinking about betting, you should start calling it the not-so-free-card play.

[newhizzle]

4 players are not going to fold to a turn bet, check and take the free card in all spots, if heads up or maybe against 2 players ill sometimes bet

[newhizzle]

woah, didnt you used to be a black guy?

[callmedonnie]

[ QUOTE ]
woah, didnt you used to be a black guy?

[/ QUOTE ]

barry?

[DMBFan23]

I typed up a response saying I would bet the turned Q and reserve my check behind for the river, but with 4 other players I think you're behind too often. check em all

[brazilio]

[ QUOTE ]

barry?

[/ QUOTE ]

MOM?

[callmedonnie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

barry?

[/ QUOTE ]

MOM?

[/ QUOTE ]

Stu?

[newhizzle]

shant

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
woah, didnt you used to be a black guy?

[/ QUOTE ]
I was black?

[newhizzle]

i thought your avator was or maybe im confused

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
i thought your avator was or maybe im confused

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, it was Barry Bonds for a minute.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm checking all of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heads up I'd bet this frequently! Check all of 'em when your up against 4.

[chief444]

There's no way I'm checking the Q one. I'm surprised so many people are. The others I check, sure.

[Dave5511]

[ QUOTE ]
There's no way I'm checking the Q one. I'm surprised so many people are. The others I check, sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this one so much stronger than when you pick up the straight draw? Yeah, you have a pair, but it's probably not good. You have two more queens you can hit which probably give you the best hand...I'm not sure I like it if a T comes giving me queens up since AJ, KQ, K(any 2nd pair) all beat you. Maybe you can count the four T's as 2 outs, now giving you 4. That's the exact number of extra outs the straight draw gives you, and only the Js isn't the nuts, but that gives you the flush.

Just curious why you like the pair more than the new draw.

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]
There's no way I'm checking the Q one. I'm surprised so many people are. The others I check, sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.

[Dave5511]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's no way I'm checking the Q one. I'm surprised so many people are. The others I check, sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, same question I asked chief444. Why do you like that one so much more than the straight draw?

[chief444]

Because you may have the best hand. You now likely have have 5 more outs. You're overestimating the chances of AJ or KQ here. The additional outs are nice. But you have a made hand now that may be best. Couple that with all of the outs to improve and it seems like a very easy bet to me.

[elindauer]

With so many callers, this hand is going to showdown. Facing an overcard, the only hand you can think about betting is the one where you have turned a pair that might be good. Now you can think about hand protection. Betting to clean up your pair outs when you could have taken a free card is just WAY too expensive.

Personally, I check all 3. If my opponents were really bad, I might bet the Q.

Good luck.
Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would check in every single one of those spots. And congratulations, the free card play just worked for you. For the price of an extra small bet you just got to see the river. If you are thinking about betting, you should start calling it the not-so-free-card play.

[/ QUOTE ]

His flop play is not a free card play, it is a value raise. He could make that raise even if he knew there was no hope of the turn being checked to him.

Your conclusion is correct though, checking the turn and taking the serendipitous free card is clearly correct.

Good luck.
Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, same question I asked chief444. Why do you like that one so much more than the straight draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

A bet on a turn Q is much more compelling:

- you have a stronger draw (14 outs to 2 pair or better vs 12), so there is more value as a value bet
- you have showdown value unimproved, so your bet has merit as a means of protecting your hand
- you will be check-raised on the A turn more often than the Q turn.

Good luck.
Eric

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
woah, didnt you used to be a black guy?

[/ QUOTE ]
The steroids have finally flushed out of his system.

[brettbrettr]

Raise preflop?

(check)

Here is a related question that I've been thinking about. Lets say you turn the queen, and the river is the 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif
what is your line now?

I would be inclined to call for one bet depending on pot size but probobly fold if I'm overcalling, good or no?