The Dreaded..........MIN-RAISE!

[grandgnu]

Geesh, I dunno how many donks a day I see using the good ol' min-raise.

They're as liable to do it with pocket Aces as they are with A/8 sooted UTG. They do it from MP, they do it out of position in the blinds after there are 27 limpers, it just don't make no gosh-darn sense!

Please tell me no 2+2ers employ the min-raise. And if so, please explain in what situations you'd use this 99.9% donkish manuever

[yvesaint]

I've used it a fair number times, but only on the river. You're holding something like JJ and the board looks like J 10 9 9 8, donk bets on the river, you mini-raise, they will ALWAYS CALL. I've never seen the average donk NOT call a river mini-raise, even when they're holding something like top pair.

They fold to a larger raise, but will always call the mini-raise on the river, even a check mini-raise, because they 'have to see what the guy has, he might be bluffing me, and hey, it's only $15 more'.

[nervous]

I minraise all the time.





Oh wait, I play limit.

[illini43]

[ QUOTE ]
I minraise all the time.





Oh wait, I play limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!

[KowCiller]

lapoker rocks:

lapoker talks minraise (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3157937&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

KoW

[mattrado]

Sit and go's, preflop, <5 people left, high blinds, kings or aces.

The min raise late in in sit and goes makes it look like you're trying to take the blinds. I can't count how many times people will just push all in, trying to call bullsh1t on you with their KJ or A6. The min raise is a great tool.

-Matt

[spaminator101]

i min raise all the time so that good players think i am a donk and i get paid off on good hands

[grandgnu]

Min-raising with A/A or K/K also allows them to just call and hit two pair, a draw, etc. and have a shot at taking down your pocket pair. I've seen many a min-raising fool with a strong hand get himself into trouble.

[jman220]

You're losing value by only minraising rivers on a board like that. Bet more, its player dependent, but the donks that will always call a minraise will also usually call a larger raise.

[ZenMusician]

The min-raise is a valid move; a move in an arsenal of plays.
It is better to think in terms of your EV of the hand (which
includes all pertinent info such as positions, stack size, etc.)
and HOW MUCH MONEY YOU CAN EXTRACT from the opponent/
situation. Some opponents will take the bait of one move while
another will see right through it. Not considering all aspects of
the hand in play makes the min-raises or post-oak-bluffs or donk-bets
a george play. The min-raise itself is not a fish move per se.

Focus more on your opponents' tendencies and how you can exploit
them instead of shooting down a particular play...THAT is winning
poker.

-ZEN

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
The min-raise is a valid move; a move in an arsenal of plays.
It is better to think in terms of your EV of the hand (which
includes all pertinent info such as positions, stack size, etc.)
and HOW MUCH MONEY YOU CAN EXTRACT from the opponent/
situation. Some opponents will take the bait of one move while
another will see right through it. Not considering all aspects of
the hand in play makes the min-raises or post-oak-bluffs or donk-bets
a george play. The min-raise itself is not a fish move per se.

Focus more on your opponents' tendencies and how you can exploit
them instead of shooting down a particular play...THAT is winning
poker.

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

True, it is a weapon in your arsenal, I just don't like offering my opponent in the big blind odds to draw out on my Aces cheaply.

It can be used to trap, but oftentimes the trapper can become trapped himself.

[Spartan1983]

Read an article by Jesus Ferguson (sorry no link)where he stated minimum raising,especially from EP is good. It keeps your opponents on edge because they don't know if you have a monster or drawing hand. I've started using it more than I had in the past and I'm happy with the results so far.

[ZenMusician]

[ QUOTE ]
True, it is a weapon in your arsenal, I just don't like offering my opponent in the big blind odds to draw out on my Aces cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm...never mentioned Aces or Big Blinds...the situation you describe
may not be the best time for a min-raise. Please re-read my post, as
you seem to have only digested a small part of it. ABC poker players
rarely last very long.

-ZEN

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
True, it is a weapon in your arsenal, I just don't like offering my opponent in the big blind odds to draw out on my Aces cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm...never mentioned Aces or Big Blinds...the situation you describe
may not be the best time for a min-raise. Please re-read my post, as
you seem to have only digested a small part of it. ABC poker players
rarely last very long.

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

I vary my raises, anywhere from 2.5-5x the BB usually, it's not always 3x for pocket pairs and 4x for A/K suited. I'm not advocating ABC poker, changing it up is always good. But min-raising I still don't like, you aren't charging your opponents appropriately, thus they aren't making a mistake by calling your min-raise, you've given them odds.

If I raise, I want to raise in a manner that causes my opponent to make a mistake when they call with Q/4 sooted or what have you.

[capone0]

Maybe in short stack tourney poker min raising is legit, but not in deep stack cash games. Most idiots aren't ready to fold AA when they min raise and get outdrawn, if you aren't ready to fold'em if they get cracked, I wouldn't min-raise. It's good to put notes on people on what min-raising means post and pre-flop. To some it's a monster, to others it's a big draw.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe in short stack tourney poker min raising is legit, but not in deep stack cash games. Most idiots aren't ready to fold AA when they min raise and get outdrawn, if you aren't ready to fold'em if they get cracked, I wouldn't min-raise. It's good to put notes on people on what min-raising means post and pre-flop. To some it's a monster, to others it's a big draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm talking about my tournament experience. Let's put it this way:

You hold Q/Q and min-raise, allowing someone in the blind with a hand like A/6 to call. So if he's already got 200 invested and you raise to 400, he has to call another 200 to potentially win 600 (not counting implied odds). So, he's getting 3 to 1 on his money, while he's a roughly a 2.5 to 1 underdog, so you've given him the right price to call.

If the flop comes something like 2/6/6 you will likely give away all your money. If he hits an Ace, what do you do then? You gave him the right price to call.

How about if you hold 10/10 and min-raise and he has Q/J suited? Now he's almost coin-flipping with you and still getting 3-1 on his money, great odds.

[capone0]

I don't like Min-raises e/c Short Stack Poker. In late game tournaments. I personally don't do it but 1 of my friends uses them pretty effectively and has won a considerable amount of money in S+Gs and MTTs. The one good aspect, is it doesn't get you pot committed, but your correct in assuming your giving players odds to draw, but that's just part of the game.

[MrMoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Sit and go's, preflop, <5 people left, high blinds, kings or aces.

The min raise late in in sit and goes makes it look like you're trying to take the blinds. I can't count how many times people will just push all in, trying to call bullsh1t on you with their KJ or A6. The min raise is a great tool.

-Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't count the number of times I've called from the BB with absolute [censored] because I'm getting 3.5-1 on my money then proceeded to catch a hand and crush min-raise-moron's high pocket pair. The best part is when I bust them and they whine that I don't know how to play because I called a raise with 74o.

There's a time and a place for everything. I've used min-raises before. But it's very rare for me to not find a better line. WAY too many people misuse this online.

I like the min-raise in certain situations--i.e. youre on the button with a flop of 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif, and you hold 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. This is especially useful against 2 to 3 players and you have a pot sized bet into you. This often will get the turn card checked to you as an added benefit to building the pot and disguising your hand. Anyone disagree?

[capone0]

Definitely getting free cards are great. I think this thread is refering to min-raise pf though.

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely getting free cards are great. I think this thread is refering to min-raise pf though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Woops...i assumed he meant if it was ever a good play. Im sure most of us have used the min-raise in the SB when everyone has folded to you pre-flop. Also, min-raises in tourneys are very effective as the blinds reach higher levels. If youre one of the leaders you can steal a lot of blinds using this method as you approach the money and smaller stacks tighten up.

[BreakfastBurrito]

In ring NL games, I'll min raise a lot with sets on the flop on uncoordinated boards. I don't want to lose the opponent, allow myself to build a bigger pot and increase my chances of getting paid when I 3/4 pot the turn and river. And often times it will lead to large reraises allowing me to push.

[spaminator101]

yes but i dont min raise with AA KK
only with J10 98 etc,

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Definitely getting free cards are great. I think this thread is refering to min-raise pf though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Woops...i assumed he meant if it was ever a good play. Im sure most of us have used the min-raise in the SB when everyone has folded to you pre-flop. Also, min-raises in tourneys are very effective as the blinds reach higher levels. If youre one of the leaders you can steal a lot of blinds using this method as you approach the money and smaller stacks tighten up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still advocate a 2.5x the BB raise in these spots, a min-raise won't always get them to give up their blinds, but the blinds/antes are pretty significant at that point, and many of the shorter-stacks will drop to a 2.5x the BB raise

[Uppercut]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure most of us have used the min-raise in the SB when everyone has folded to you pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a TERRIBLE spot to mini-raise. You are giving the BB 3-1 to call you with position. Yuck!

[phillydilly]

i've started using the min raise preflop in cutoff or button, pocket pair 22-66, with limpers in front of me

reasons are
confuses opponents, often letting me see a free turn card if i miss the flop
doubles the size of the pot if i hit a set
in the cutoff a min raise often buys the button
if i miss, i only put out a small bet, and dont feel the need to chase bad money with good.

postflop, i rarely use it

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]

How about if you hold 10/10 and min-raise and he has Q/J suited? Now he's almost coin-flipping with you and still getting 3-1 on his money, great odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its only a coin flip sitution if your min raise puts him or you all in.

--Zetack



On the other hand, he is 30 percent to hit one of his cards on the flop so 3-1 is still pretty close to a good price for his call.

The only time I really like the min raise preflop late in a sng with a few players left and you have a huge chiplead. I'll often raise just about anything the min amount. Even if the short stack is getting priced in to call they often won't just because it is too much of their stack.

[mattrado]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sit and go's, preflop, <5 people left, high blinds, kings or aces.

The min raise late in in sit and goes makes it look like you're trying to take the blinds. I can't count how many times people will just push all in, trying to call bullsh1t on you with their KJ or A6. The min raise is a great tool.

-Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't count the number of times I've called from the BB with absolute [censored] because I'm getting 3.5-1 on my money then proceeded to catch a hand and crush min-raise-moron's high pocket pair. The best part is when I bust them and they whine that I don't know how to play because I called a raise with 74o.

There's a time and a place for everything. I've used min-raises before. But it's very rare for me to not find a better line. WAY too many people misuse this online.

[/ QUOTE ]


You defend 74o out of position and heads up for 1/2 of your stack near the bubble of a SNG just cuz you're getting 3.5-1? That can't be a good line....

-Matt

I will min-raise sometimes to always keep my opponents guessing as to what I have.. If I came in for 4 times the blind on AK or AA and showed it down.. maybe now I'll come in for the minraise

[illunious]

This is all covered in chapter 5.

http://www.bdids.com/images/PSAPbackb.jpg

This thread is for nits. It's like the old guys who get pissed when I straddle. "That's the worst play in poker" they always say...

Miniraises can be an effective tool in certain situations. You shouldn't limit your arsenal just because one time or another some twoplustwo expert said miniraises were bad.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is for nits. It's like the old guys who get pissed when I straddle. "That's the worst play in poker" they always say...

Miniraises can be an effective tool in certain situations. You shouldn't limit your arsenal just because one time or another some twoplustwo expert said miniraises were bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't claim to be a twoplustwo "expert", not in the slightest. My game is constantly "evolving" (which doesn't necessarily mean "improving"

Please feel free to post times when you believe a min-raise is the correct play, and why it is the correct play. I feel that there are extremely few times when a min-raise is a good or correct play, given the pot odds you offer opponents when you make such a move.

[Huhmare]

I might use it sometimes. Just to mix it up. I don't want anybody to get a clue of my playstyle.

I even remeber this one time it paid off. I minraised UTG shorthanded. BB made a hefty raise and I knew he had KK or QQ and AA(unlikely =D ). I called him and called his pot sized continuation bet and then raised him all in on the turn. He showed me KK and told my how foolishly I had played the hand.

And of course I make this minraise thing a lot more with garbage. It seem to scare people and I can bluff them easily.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I might use it sometimes. Just to mix it up. I don't want anybody to get a clue of my playstyle.

I even remeber this one time it paid off. I minraised UTG shorthanded. BB made a hefty raise and I knew he had KK or QQ and AA(unlikely =D ). I called him and called his pot sized continuation bet and then raised him all in on the turn. He showed me KK and told my how foolishly I had played the hand.

And of course I make this minraise thing a lot more with garbage. It seem to scare people and I can bluff them easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can mix it up by varying your raise between 3-5x the BB, the min-raise just provides too tempting pot odds to your opponents. It makes their calls correct, so you aren't causing your opponent to make a mistake.