ABC question about a hand

[Buccaneer]

Every one is new to this game. I am embarrased to post this but what exactly is the ABC play here and why please.

I raised pre flop, called the flop, should I have played it different?

How about the turn? I have nothing but an over card and the board is beating me.

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero ?????

I can find a fold on the flop.

EDIT: You have a backdoor straight draw, plus 1 over. Your hand is probably worth about 3-4 outs.

[fizzleboink]

I'd fold on the flop, you've got 1.5 outs for the 3 aces (because you won't win when you hit an A all the time). You can't be confident about the J's either.

Even if you gave yourself 3 outs you still don't have the proper pot odds to call. You practically need 6, which you don't have.

[fizzleboink]

Oh and it's not a sin to fold the flop when you raised pre-flop. Betting into the pre-flop raiser indicates some kind of strength. You're not getting the best of it, so fold.

[Durs522]

I think I raise this flop if I'm 3 bet I can find a fold even though we're getting great odds to call.

Durs

[UATrewqaz]

Preflop - Raise is good

Flop - Fold is most likely best for a few reasons

1. The pot is not huge(the pot is always the first thing to consideer)
2. If the bettor has a Q you are essentially drawing dead, save runner/runner
3. You have no really good backdoor draws (board would be alot better for you if the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif was instead /images/graemlins/club.gif). Your straight backdoor draw isn't that grand either since you don't have 3 connected.

One could argue for a RAISE on the flop, in order to buy a free card on the turn and see the river for free. Then you can fold to a river bet.

If you raise and are 3 bet you simply fold.

[grjr]

I'd fold the flop too and then keep an eye on BB to make sure he doesn't make a habit out of betting into scary flops.

[deception5]

Heads up I would consider raising the turn. Since the player bet into two players here, I would definitely let go on the turn, possibly on the flop.

[Durs522]

Does villian here automatically have a Q? I find it hard to believe that most of the lower limit players would simply bet out and not go for a c/r o this flop if they had a Q. Personally I tend to think he has hand like 109s or a J10. We may very well be folding the best hand here if we autofold on the flop. I think raising tells us if we're beat or not and can also give us a free card. As long as we're disciplined enough to fold to a 3 bet on the flop I really like raising here.

Durs

[dethgrind]

[ QUOTE ]
Every one is new to this game. I am embarrased to post this but what exactly is the ABC play here and why please.

I raised pre flop, called the flop, should I have played it different?

How about the turn? I have nothing but an over card and the board is beating me.

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero ?????

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your thought process on calling the flop?

I guess BB having a Q isn't too likely since so many people would slowplay that. So a majority of the time, you're either ahead already, or behind a 9 or pocket pair. You're getting a decent price, so calling is probably ok. It doesn't seem like raising will accomplish much either.

When BB gets called by both of you and he bets again, he's less likely to have something you're ahead of. Your odds are also worse, so folding seems ok.

[Aaron W.]

The ABC answer is to just fold the flop. You have a weak hand and the pot is small.

The DEF answer is to think about raising, especially if villain would normally check-raise the turn with flopped trips.

I have no idea what GHI answer would be (call and raise the turn to mimic a slowplayed AQ/KQ?). Higher level thinking is beyond me. But you don't need to worry because it's probably also beyond villain.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
find it hard to believe that most of the lower limit players would simply bet out and not go for a c/r o this flop if they had a Q

[/ QUOTE ]

c/r'ing this flop with a Q would be a very bad play...

[Durs522]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
find it hard to believe that most of the lower limit players would simply bet out and not go for a c/r o this flop if they had a Q

[/ QUOTE ]

c/r'ing this flop with a Q would be a very bad play...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Needless to say I don't give villian much credit here.

[dethgrind]

[ QUOTE ]
The ABC answer is to just fold the flop. You have a weak hand and the pot is small.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are getting 8.5 to 1. The pot is not really small; it was raised and called by two people preflop. I'd call the pot medium-sized.

[imported_The Vibesman]

I think the fold is fine, although I think you're probably drawing to 6 outs. Pot's still not big enough to call.

I like calling the flop, and betting the turn if checked to, esp if MP2 also checked, or if he folded on the flop. Sometimes that's enough to scare away a BB who bluffed at the flop. Here, BB bets again into the field after being called by both on the flop, that's a sign of trouble. I'd say he at least has nines.

Sometimes you may want to raise a flop like this as a semi-bluff; if villian is just taking a shot at the flop, he may fold right then, or to a followup bet on the turn. This is not a play I would try without a good read on my opponent, though.

There is also a fine argument for folding the flop, basically that the pot is too small to contest when you may be so far behind.

[@bsolute_luck]

i like how it was played. and would fold the turn.

[Saint_D]

Paired flops are special.

1. With overcards you are typically way ahead or way behind.
2. It's impossible to get action from most players on them.
3. at .5/1 people with a pocket pair will play pretty fast most of the time.
4. You will see flopped boats from time to time.

With all this in mind I think I have been playing them all wrong. Here is my new thinking. This of course is default play. Adjust for table texture and reads as usual.

If the pot is not "big" just fold unless you have a 4 strait/flush.

If the pot is big, raise or checkraise with overcards (one of them must be an ace) and hope to spike your pair. Try to get the pot heads up, or plain buy it on the flop.

If you pair the low end of the board be very cautious. If it's a 9, you might be good. A 5 is in serious danger of someone pairing a higher hole card or getting counterfitted.

-D

[Buccaneer]

[ QUOTE ]
The ABC answer is to just fold the flop. You have a weak hand and the pot is small.

The DEF answer is to think about raising, especially if villain would normally check-raise the turn with flopped trips.

I have no idea what GHI answer would be (call and raise the turn to mimic a slowplayed AQ/KQ?). Higher level thinking is beyond me. But you don't need to worry because it's probably also beyond villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aaron-I folded the turn because I was trying to play DEF but when the turn missed I knew that I did not have the info needed to play with these guys DEF. I guess I played it C+ or D-.

All the responses were helpful and seem to tell me that this play is read dependent. I did not have those reads. Am I wrong?