What did I do right and wrong here?

Villian is a well-known multitabling rock at 10-20 and 15-30. 12.5/7.8 over 470 hands.

1.53 overall AF, but it jumps to 2.33 on the river (though I did not have this infomation at hand when I played the hand, I only knew he was a rock with a 12.5% VPIP).

Edit: He respects my play, so his range of 3-bet hands is limited here. Something like AQs/AJs was not even a possibility, imho.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

[callmedonnie]

I call the three bet here PF sometimes too when I'm HU, up against a good player, and I want to disguise my hand a little. Since he's a rock, if I've been playing at him lately I would cap but no problems there.

His three bet range is probably thin. KK-tens, which we kill, and AK. I doubt AQ, but you were the one at the table. Anyway, I am going to get aggressive on flop for value and to define villain's hand. I would probably c/r. I definitely would not c/c.

When you c/r turn and he just calls, and then raises river I am getting scared of Kings. I don't think that river changed anything. He might have AK, and I am paying him off.

I really hate the check/call on the flop. I think a more aggressive line there w/ a lead on turn would have been better. The way I see it, we are lucky that rock has a monster hand that we are way ahead of. Let's get some of his $.

[ QUOTE ]
I call the three bet here PF sometimes too when I'm HU, up against a good player, and I want to disguise my hand a little. Since he's a rock, if I've been playing at him lately I would cap but no problems there.

His three bet range is probably thin. KK-tens, which we kill, and AK. I doubt AQ, but you were the one at the table. Anyway, I am going to get aggressive on flop for value and to define villain's hand. I would probably c/r. I definitely would not c/c.

When you c/r turn and he just calls, and then raises river I am getting scared of Kings. I don't think that river changed anything. He might have AK, and I am paying him off.

I really hate the check/call on the flop. I think a more aggressive line there w/ a lead on turn would have been better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would I check-raise a rock on the flop to define his hand when I know I am ahead of it?

I am not trying to be flippant, I am just trying to clarify. Let's say I CR him and he's on AK--he'll go away, which is not what I want. If he's on KK he might reraise once or he might fear aces or a set and shut down, which is also not ideal.

I am *way* in front on the flop heads-up against someone who doesn't give a lot of action but who will almost certainly see a showdown and will certainly bet the turn (unless I blow him off of AK on the flop). I don't understand why I would not wait until the turn to get an extra bet on a big street. If he has KK and hits his two-outer ... well that's poker. But it should not change the way I attempt to extract bets, because that is really what this hand is about, isn't it?

[shant]

I don't like checking to a rock on the turn. We're pretty much hoping he has AKo here because otherwise he's checking behind or has our hand owned. I think I'd just rather play this straight-forward this time. This is a lot like your play last time except I believe you were up against a more aggressive player who would put in a lot more bets than a rock will, regardless of how much you disguised your hand.

I'm just capping preflop and betting and raising against this guy.

[HolyBejeesus]

What Donnie is saying is that you missed some bets. If he had KK, you could get more out of him by bet/calling the flop and bet/3betting the turn, or using an alternative line. And he is right.

[ QUOTE ]
What Donnie is saying is that you missed some bets. If he had KK, you could get more out of him by bet/calling the flop and bet/3betting the turn, or using an alternative line. And he is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry but that's fuzzy thinking. Yes, that line might (might) get me an additional bet out of KK, but it loses bets to AK and QQ/JJ at mid limits. This is because people tend to give an EP raiser due credit for big pairs at those limits, and a rock like this guy will turtle if I make the utterly obvious move of calling the flop and donking the turn. And if I CR the flop I am in an even worse position to extract the max.

If I tailor my line to only KK, I am not playing against the villian's range of hands, which is what I should be doing here.

Again, I am not trying to argue, but I sometimes find that the critiques on here are unsound. I think, for what it's worth, that the possible mistakes I made here were not re-raising the river and not leading the turn, though I am very unsure about leading the turn when I know he'll bet that card even with QQ/JJ.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like checking to a rock on the turn. We're pretty much hoping he has AKo here because otherwise he's checking behind or has our hand owned. I think I'd just rather play this straight-forward this time. This is a lot like your play last time except I believe you were up against a more aggressive player who would put in a lot more bets than a rock will, regardless of how much you disguised your hand.

I'm just capping preflop and betting and raising against this guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're capping PF against a player like this in this spot you are losing a LOT of bets when he folds AK or shuts down (or even folds) 99/1010/JJ against your flop bet/reraise. A *lot* of bets.

As I said, I am not sure I like checking to him on the turn either. If he has AK, he'll raise and I get to reraise right there (with the nut flush draw as a backup against KK). It's a very debatable part of the hand.

[shant]

This guy is folding AK,99,TT, or JJ to one flop bet and checking the turn is a good idea?

Edit: Sorry, just read the rest of your post. I don't mind calling preflop for deception but I don't like checking twice. I prefer bet/3-betting the flop. Since we under-represented before the flop, if he raises the flop and we 3-bet he's going to have a hard time figuring out what we have and may call down with the other big pairs. What do you think of that as an extraction technique.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
the possible mistakes I made here were not re-raising the river...

[/ QUOTE ]

Either your read sucks or this idea sucks.

[ QUOTE ]
This guy is folding AKo,99,TT, or JJ to one flop bet and checking the turn is a good idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just edited to include flop reraise.

If I cap preflop is changes the entire tone of the hand and will affect what he does on the turn. You are implying that he is so weak tight that he will check behind with many hands on the turn and I will have whiffed. This is only true if I cap the flop, in most cases. Please don't take comments out of context. My comment about him folding those hands was directed to specifically the scenario where I cap preflop.

When I don't cap preflop, then the turn check isn't as dangerous, as I am pretty sure he'll take another stab at it even with QQ/JJ. The turn check is possibly suboptimal for other reasons, as I have stated (i.e., if he has AK I lose a bet, if he has KK, I am CRing with the worst of it and about to get re-raised, and I might blow him off of QQ/JJ with a CR).

[shant]

Oscar, re-read my post. I edited after re-reading yours.

[chief444]

Why would you call the preflop 3-bet and then check/call the flop? Talk about leaving money on the table.

[chief444]

OK, more specifically, why didn't you bet/3-bet the flop?

[brettbrettr]

You need to ask youself, "Why am I calling this pre-flop?" Then answer, "Oh, its so I can get in numerous bet on the flop." Same applies from flop to turn. You really need to get some bets in here.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the possible mistakes I made here were not re-raising the river...

[/ QUOTE ]

Either your read sucks or this idea sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I know you're a respected poster here Evan, but let's think about this for a second. I thought it would be obvious to the posters here what villian has, but I was wrong I suppose.

I know he doesn't have AQs/AJs. He is too tight to reraise with those PF (especially in that position). He does not have a flush, of that I am certain.

Further, he does not have KK. Why? Because he would have reraised me on the turn for sure. He's not scared of AQs or AJs either in this spot from me. There is almost no chance I have these hands given the way I played the flop, as he knows I would have either bet out or raised with the nut flush draw. No, he knows I almost certainly have AK/AA/KQ/low set or possibly QQ with the Qc (and am semi-bluffing the turn). He's miles ahead of all of those hands with KK on the turn. Remember, he is a *good* player who thinks these things through. So he's not going to want to let me have a cheap shot with a /images/graemlins/club.gif in my hand, and he has a redraw to a full house, so he'll reraise me for certain if he has KK on this turn because he knows he is ahead and knows I will call.

So we've eliminated KK, and obviously JJ/QQ are not hands he is raising the river with (and hell, if they are, I want to reraise anyways). 88 and 55 are not possible for him here either given the PF 3-bet.

So the only hand that makes sense here is AK. He'd bet that on the flop, and he'd just call on the turn with it. When no /images/graemlins/club.gif hits the river, he is only scared of KK and AA, and he knows those are quite unlikely given he holds and A and a K and there is a K on the board (only 3 ways to make AA and one to make KK). So he is pretty confident that he has the best hand, and he raises me, just in case I am still semibluffing with QQ or on the off chance I will pay him off with KQ with the Q /images/graemlins/club.gif.

I did work through this at the time, but was afraid to pull the trigger. I knew he didn't have KK, and I was 95% sure I was going to see AK, but I didn't reraise. I really should have, and I guess I should have posted this as a hand-reading exercise. Sorry.

[ QUOTE ]
You need to ask youself, "Why am I calling this pre-flop?" Then answer, "Oh, its so I can get in numerous bet on the flop." Same applies from flop to turn. You really need to get some bets in here.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It's so I can get the most bets, period. The flop is often not the place to do that, particularly at mid limits. Remember, I did get 2 in on the turn and river against a rock.

[MaxPower]

The beauty of the rock is his predictability. If you play the flop aggressively you will know exactly how his hand compares to yours and that will allow you to play the turn and river perfectly.

[HolyBejeesus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What Donnie is saying is that you missed some bets. If he had KK, you could get more out of him by bet/calling the flop and bet/3betting the turn, or using an alternative line. And he is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is because people tend to give an EP raiser due credit for big pairs at those limits, and a rock like this guy will turtle if I make the utterly obvious move of calling the flop and donking the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK isn't this why you didn't cap preflop? If he has AK you aren't going to get much out of him postflop anyway (assuming he doesn't hit), why not make more when he has JJ-KK?

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You need to ask youself, "Why am I calling this pre-flop?" Then answer, "Oh, its so I can get in numerous bet on the flop." Same applies from flop to turn. You really need to get some bets in here.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It's so I can get the most bets, period. The flop is often not the place to do that, particularly at mid limits. Remember, I did get 2 in on the turn and river against a rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your call of his river raise makes you think you're ahead?

If not, then why are you happily putting in multiple bets when youre behind?

[ QUOTE ]
This guy is folding AK,99,TT, or JJ to one flop bet and checking the turn is a good idea?

Edit: Sorry, just read the rest of your post. I don't mind calling preflop for deception but I don't like checking twice. I prefer bet/3-betting the flop. Since we under-represented before the flop, if he raises the flop and we 3-bet he's going to have a hard time figuring out what we have and may call down with the other big pairs. What do you think of that as an extraction technique.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's pretty good, because I'd play AK this way too. My worry is blowing him off of AK, but I think he probably sees the turn with it anyways, and folds it UI.

The thing is, once the turn was a K, I was 99% sure he would bet it, even with JJ/QQ. I felt totally sure about checking the turn here to get a CR in. The worry is that the CR now kicks him off of QQ/JJ and I lose a bet, but I figured that the chances he would be holding a /images/graemlins/club.gif with those recompensed me for this possibility (because he would call to the river to try to spike one, and god help him if he does).

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You need to ask youself, "Why am I calling this pre-flop?" Then answer, "Oh, its so I can get in numerous bet on the flop." Same applies from flop to turn. You really need to get some bets in here.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It's so I can get the most bets, period. The flop is often not the place to do that, particularly at mid limits. Remember, I did get 2 in on the turn and river against a rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your call of his river raise makes you think you're ahead?

If not, then why are you happily putting in multiple bets when youre behind?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I should have raised the river, as I said above.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
No, I should have raised the river, as I said above.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad, missed that. There are just too many places in this hand where you should have raised.

[brettbrettr]

By the by, the thing about rocks is that many of them often hate folding. They wait and wait and they see their hands through. The stat that's much importance here is wtsd, not vpip. Your play might have some merit if he's weak. But if he's going to SD you're missing value.

[callmedonnie]

I know you are way ahead of him, but he doesn't know that. AK is only one of his possible holdings. I would want him getting aggressive w/ his overpair because that is where we make $ on this pot.

[Evan]

I don't think your assumptions are unreasonable. I do think calling this guy a rock was a poor choice of words. Rocks don't raise the river with one pair after being check raised on the turn when a flush card hits, they just don't.

Also...
[ QUOTE ]
So the only hand that makes sense here is AK (probably with the K /images/graemlins/club.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably not.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What Donnie is saying is that you missed some bets. If he had KK, you could get more out of him by bet/calling the flop and bet/3betting the turn, or using an alternative line. And he is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is because people tend to give an EP raiser due credit for big pairs at those limits, and a rock like this guy will turtle if I make the utterly obvious move of calling the flop and donking the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK isn't this why you didn't cap preflop? If he has AK you aren't going to get much out of him postflop anyway (assuming he doesn't hit), why not make more when he has JJ-KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay enough of this, honestly. Capping PF here is a TERRIBLE play. It telegraphs my hand as AA/KK in this spot, because he knows that I know how he plays. I can't understand why this simple concept fails to resonate here.

To make it plain: he knows that I know he is a total rock. Therefore, he knows that I know he would only reraise me on super premium cards. Therefore, if I reraise before the flop, he can safely put me on AA/KK, because these are really the only hands I would reraise this guy with. Therefore, when he has 1010/JJ/QQ/AK, I am going to scare the (ahem) beejesus out of him preflop, and since I am now going to have to bet out on the flop (checking it would be even more obviously AA/KK), he's going to check fold the flop at worst (with AK) and (probably) just call down with QQ/JJ, folding when the K hits unless he has a club. I don't want him to do any of these things.

I have him crushed and he's stingy with the loot, so I have to play more deceptively, and think about what he thinks and what he thinks I think in order to get the most money out of him. If I ABC this hand, I win the minimum damn near every time.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think your assumptions are unreasonable. I do think calling this guy a rock was a poor choice of words. Rocks don't raise the river with one pair after being check raised on the turn when a flush card hits, they just don't.

Also...
[ QUOTE ]
So the only hand that makes sense here is AK (probably with the K /images/graemlins/club.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably not.

[/ QUOTE ]


How could he have K/images/graemlins/club.gif?

Raising the river isn't bad but it isn't great.

[callmedonnie]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to ask youself, "Why am I calling this pre-flop?" Then answer, "Oh, its so I can get in numerous bet on the flop." Same applies from flop to turn. You really need to get some bets in here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so too.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Capping PF here is a TERRIBLE play. It telegraphs my hand as AA/KK in this spot, because he knows that I know how he plays. I can't understand why this simple concept fails to resonate here.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is stupid. I cap with AK, AA-JJ and sometimes TT here.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think your assumptions are unreasonable. I do think calling this guy a rock was a poor choice of words. Rocks don't raise the river with one pair after being check raised on the turn when a flush card hits, they just don't.

Also...
[ QUOTE ]
So the only hand that makes sense here is AK (probably with the K /images/graemlins/club.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, you can say "probably not" all you like, but you haven't given any reasons (I notice that a lot here). There is no other hand that makes any sense at all for the villian here. Please re-read my post for the reasoning.

And yes, rocks do raise the river when they think they are almost certainly ahead against a possible turn semibluff. His plan was clearly to raise any non-club on the river. I suppose you could say he's a borderline TAG, super tight, but I gave you his stats, so why argue semantics?

[Jeff W]

What is villain's screen name?

Pre flop call is good if you think it's going to get you more action. Don't call just to be fancy.

I like a bet-3bet on the flop.

Can he lay down QQ-TT on the turn if you check-raise? If so, I like a turn bet-3bet.

I'd probably 3-bet the river against this dood. If he would play AA-KK, AKo and AKs this way you are ~2:1 favorite. If he would slow down with AK, then well played.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]

Alright, you can say "probably not" all you like, but you haven't given any reasons

[/ QUOTE ]
K /images/graemlins/club.gif is on the board, homie.

[ QUOTE ]
but I gave you his stats, so why argue semantics?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because you didn't give me any postflop stats and you called him a rock so I assumed he was a rock.

[HolyBejeesus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What Donnie is saying is that you missed some bets. If he had KK, you could get more out of him by bet/calling the flop and bet/3betting the turn, or using an alternative line. And he is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is because people tend to give an EP raiser due credit for big pairs at those limits, and a rock like this guy will turtle if I make the utterly obvious move of calling the flop and donking the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK isn't this why you didn't cap preflop? If he has AK you aren't going to get much out of him postflop anyway (assuming he doesn't hit), why not make more when he has JJ-KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay enough of this, honestly. Capping PF here is a TERRIBLE play. It telegraphs my hand as AA/KK in this spot, because he knows that I know how he plays. I can't understand why this simple concept fails to resonate here.

To make it plain: he knows that I know he is a total rock. Therefore, he knows that I know he would only reraise me on super premium cards. Therefore, if I reraise before the flop, he can safely put me on AA/KK, because these are really the only hands I would reraise this guy with. Therefore, when he has 1010/JJ/QQ/AK, I am going to scare the (ahem) beejesus out of him preflop, and since I am now going to have to bet out on the flop (checking it would be even more obviously AA/KK), he's going to check fold the flop at worst (with AK) and (probably) just call down with QQ/JJ, folding when the K hits unless he has a club. I don't want him to do any of these things.

I have him crushed and he's stingy with the loot, so I have to play more deceptively, and think about what he thinks and what he thinks I think in order to get the most money out of him. If I ABC this hand, I win the minimum damn near every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. If you'll actually read my post, I didn't say "Cap preflop." I said, if you want to use deception, you should try to get a extra couple bets in along the way somewhere (isn't this the whole point?). See every other post in this thread.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Capping PF here is a TERRIBLE play. It telegraphs my hand as AA/KK in this spot, because he knows that I know how he plays. I can't understand why this simple concept fails to resonate here.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is stupid. I cap with AK, AA-JJ and sometimes TT here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're thinking at level 1. You're only looking at what you have. When you fully understand level 3 and 4 thinking and are willing to employ it, get back to me and tell me how stupid this play is against this opponent. Please re-read the above post for the reasoning.

I honestly thought this board would all come back with not re-raising the river as the major mistake in this hand, followed perhaps by not betting out the turn.

I have to say, I'm pretty dissapointed in the lack of sophistication in understanding what I figured were some pretty basic psychological/deception/hand-reading concepts on this thread.

[baronzeus]

You missed a ton of bets here. Bet the flop, bet the turn. Why would you not bet the turn here? He'll raise 90% of the time and you say his possible hands are AK-AKs, and AA-KK, with KK being the least likely. He WILL raise this turn and you CAN 3bet him here.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Alright, you can say "probably not" all you like, but you haven't given any reasons

[/ QUOTE ]
K /images/graemlins/club.gif is on the board, homie.

[ QUOTE ]
but I gave you his stats, so why argue semantics?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because you didn't give me any postflop stats and you called him a rock so I assumed he was a rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did give you postflop stats. Look above. I had seen him play, and knew he was aggressive on later streets, particularly the river, but I didn't actually look at his river stats and AF while playing. I knew what I was dealing with though.

[baronzeus]

OK, here's some level 3 thinking. He knows I know he is a rock. I cap with TT or even 99 here since I know that he knows that I respect him and therefore I must have a huge hand.

If he is an amazing player like he says you are, your turn check-raise is much more transparent than a cap preflop.

[callmedonnie]

capping preflop is necessarily terrible. as i already said, if me and villain have been going at it I am going to cap because it looks like spite, etc.

but if its HU, letting him think you are calling a three bet but not happy about it is preferred.

against a really good player, capping could be right because it is so obvious he may suspect you have something else as you wouldn't want to telegraph your hand.

[ QUOTE ]
You missed a ton of bets here. Bet the flop, bet the turn. Why would you not bet the turn here? He'll raise 90% of the time and you say his possible hands are AK-AKs, and AA-KK, with KK being the least likely. He WILL raise this turn and you CAN 3bet him here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting out the turn might have been a mistake, but since I knew he would bet it and I could CR him, it's very close. The possibility of him folding QQ/JJ or simply calling down from there balances it in favour of a check.

Why must you always speak in such absolutes? Many poker decisions are close and this is most definitely one of them. If I missed a bet in this hand, it's on the river, as I have discussed. The turn decision is so close it probably doesn't affect things either way against villian's range. Shant made some good points about it without coming off as someone who was 100% sure about what is clearly a marginal decision.

[baronzeus]

Edit: nevermind. Too tired of bullshit like this.


Bet the damn turn.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Why must you always speak in such absolutes?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Capping PF here is a TERRIBLE play.

[/ QUOTE ]


Why must you always speak in such absolutes?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think your assumptions are unreasonable. I do think calling this guy a rock was a poor choice of words. Rocks don't raise the river with one pair after being check raised on the turn when a flush card hits, they just don't.

Also...
[ QUOTE ]
So the only hand that makes sense here is AK (probably with the K /images/graemlins/club.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably not.

[/ QUOTE ]


How could he have K/images/graemlins/club.gif?

Raising the river isn't bad but it isn't great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, hasty typing, corrected now.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why must you always speak in such absolutes?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Capping PF here is a TERRIBLE play.

[/ QUOTE ]


Why must you always speak in such absolutes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read my reasons and you'll see why it's terrible. Your absolutes are not backed up by cogent or compelling reasoning. You seem to think that if you make your points as forcefully as possible, it will give them more credence. It does not.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
I did give you postflop stats. Look above.

[/ QUOTE ]
My bad. I missed it since it wasn't on the same line as the vpip/pfr.

1.5 AF is really passive with a 12.something vpip so I wouldn't raise the river. AK makes a lot of sense for an aggressive guy, but imo he isn't one. I would say the fact that he had AK this time is very much the exception to the rule.

[chief444]

Well, I can't speak for everyone but you'll have to forgive me. It's been a while since I've played middle limits. And I didn't remember that people didn't call raises there. Or that "rocks" suddenly raise rivers with TPTK when you represent the flush.

It really seemed to me like you missed bets here early. But I guess I'm just not to your level of understanding yet. Maybe someday I'll understand.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I can't speak for everyone but you'll have to forgive me. It's been a while since I've played middle limits. And I didn't remember that people didn't call raises there. Or that "rocks" suddenly raise rivers with TPTK when you represent the flush.

It really seemed to me like you missed bets here early. But I guess I'm just not to your level of understanding yet. Maybe someday I'll understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to say, I'm pretty dissapointed in the lack of sophistication in understanding what I figured were some pretty basic psychological/deception/hand-reading concepts on this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Post this in mid-high. See what kind of sophistication you get there.

FWIW, if you're so sure about what you should have done don't bother posting the hand. I don't like the way you played this, btu given the way you did I think you should have reraised the river--there we agree. But I think you should have lead at some point so you could 3-bet. Again, I think you left bets on the table.

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, you are an arrogant [censored]. If you want our advice, ask for it. If you don't, don't post and then berate us when we don't agree.

Bet the damn turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Call me any names you like. I could really care less. But if you're going to respond to a strategy post, make sure you have something wortwhile to contribute please. Newbie ABC Poker Strategy 101 is not what I was looking for, and I'm sorry if it offends you that I don't take your advice. It's hard to take seriously advice from people who are more interested in proving themselves right than having a decent strategic discussion. I'm constantly willing to be shown where I've messed up, but I'm not going to take bad advice or ignore it on a board designed to help people improve just to be pleasant.

Some of the discussion on this thread has been excellent though (Shant's comments in particular), and has given me much to think about.

[baronzeus]

Your range preflop is probably AA-88, AKs-AJs, KQs, AKo-AQo (maybe AJo/KQo). His 3betting range is AA-JJ, AK. if he is truly as amazing as you are playing him out to be, he has to put you on EXACTLY KQ or AQo with a club to raise with AK here. Perhaps he thinks you have QQ with a club. All other hands don't make any sense, and since he still raised the river even though he is behind or splitting most of the hands you legitimately raise on the turn, his raise is stupid and therefore he is not nearly as good as you think he is and THEREFORE you should stop using level 46 thinking against him.

[brettbrettr]

OMFG:

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the middle limit you're speaking of? Seriously, don't give these guys too much credit. These games are not very tough. And very few people give EP raisers credit for anything. I only have a few thousand hands there, but, seriously, it doesn't take much to convince guys to call bets at a typical 10/20 Party game.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have to say, I'm pretty dissapointed in the lack of sophistication in understanding what I figured were some pretty basic psychological/deception/hand-reading concepts on this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Post this in mid-high. See what kind of sophistication you get there.

FWIW, if you're so sure about what you should have done don't bother posting the hand. I don't like the way you played this, btu given the way you did I think you should have reraised the river--there we agree. But I think you should have lead at some point so you could 3-bet. Again, I think you left bets on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I might, but the discussion there is often very thin, and very low on reasoning. I usually get a lot better discussion here.

I am not sure about how I played this hand, and it's disappointing to me that disagreeing with some of the (poor) advice I have been given makes you think that. There are two clear possible trouble spots--the turn CR and the river. I think the turn is close now that is has been discussed, and I think it is clear in retrospect I wussed out on the river and missed a bet.

Another possibility (and I'm sorry if someone raised this and I missed it) is that I should have led the flop and just called a raise, then CRed the turn. I might have gotten an extra SB.

But please don't think that I am so sure that I played this properly that I am not willing to listen to solid advice. That is totally not the case, and I would not have posted it if it were.

[baronzeus]

By the way, against his range (AA-JJ, AK) you should bet/3bet this flop, and bet/3bet the turn. KK-JJ always raise you on this flop, and AK probably raises you too. This way, he'll put you on 88-TT since you didn't cap preflop. So when the K hits, if his hand improves, he'll raise here, and he might even raise QQ-JJ here again trying to represent the K against your likely hands, and you can throw in another 3bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Your range preflop is probably AA-88, AKs-AJs, KQs, AKo-AQo (maybe AJo/KQo). His 3betting range is AA-JJ, AK. if he is truly as amazing as you are playing him out to be, he has to put you on EXACTLY KQ or AQo with a club to raise with AK here. Perhaps he thinks you have QQ with a club. All other hands don't make any sense, and since he still raised the river even though he is behind or splitting most of the hands you legitimately raise on the turn, his raise is stupid and therefore he is not nearly as good as you think he is and THEREFORE you should stop using level 46 thinking against him.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really need to re-read this and think about it some more. He could raise when he thinks I might have AK for the fold equity, representing the flush (though he probably knows I know he does not have it, unless I put him on AQs, which I suppose I might if I didn't have so many hands on him) or KK/AA.

He would raise my QQ or JJ with a club. I could have KQ. I might even have KJ with a club. Because I didn't cap him preflop, it forces him into a major mistake with his river raise (one I did not take full advantage of). Basically, I know what he has and he doesn't know what I have.

I also guarantee he's a better player than you, so maybe you should lay off thinking he sucks so much, k?

[ QUOTE ]
OMFG:

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the middle limit you're speaking of? Seriously, don't give these guys too much credit. These games are not very tough. And very few people give EP raisers credit for anything. I only have a few thousand hands there, but, seriously, it doesn't take much to convince guys to call bets at a typical 10/20 Party game.

[/ QUOTE ]

K, but for reference, he's a multitabler at 10-20 through 30-60. I even have a few 50-100 hands on him. He's good.

[HolyBejeesus]

[ QUOTE ]

Another possibility (and I'm sorry if someone raised this and I missed it) is that I should have led the flop and just called a raise, then CRed the turn. I might have gotten an extra SB.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What Donnie is saying is that you missed some bets. If he had KK, you could get more out of him by bet/calling the flop and bet/3betting the turn, or using an alternative line. And he is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry but that's fuzzy thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
I also guarantee he's a better player than you, so maybe you should lay off thinking he sucks so much, k?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are officially [censored] of the year. Welcome back Tilts McFabulous.

[ QUOTE ]
*** You are ignoring this user ***

[/ QUOTE ]

[Shillx]

This is the 2nd time that you have played a hand this way, and it just doesn't make any sense. A rock isn't going to give you much action postflop, so you have to take the bets where you can get them. Just calling is fine against a LAG who will overplay AK or JJ, but not here IMO.

The other thing that you have to understand about "3rd level thinking" or whatever you call it is that they will expect you to just call preflop with AA. So the cap preflop will actually be for deception in many cases. Sometimes you cap, sometimes you just call the 3-bet. Just calling the 3-bet against this guy just can't be right though.

Brad

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Another possibility (and I'm sorry if someone raised this and I missed it) is that I should have led the flop and just called a raise, then CRed the turn. I might have gotten an extra SB.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What Donnie is saying is that you missed some bets. If he had KK, you could get more out of him by bet/calling the flop and bet/3betting the turn, or using an alternative line. And he is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry but that's fuzzy thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Please reread. I was suggesting I might have bet/called the flop and CRed the turn. Bet/calling the flop and leading the turn is an entirely different line with much different considerations.

[HolyBejeesus]

[ QUOTE ]
Please reread. I was suggesting I might have bet/called the flop and CRed the turn. Bet/calling the flop and leading the turn is an entirely different line with much different considerations.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, it takes a brilliant mind to go from bet/call, bet/3bet, to bet/call, check/raise. I'm sorry for overestimating you.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I also guarantee he's a better player than you, so maybe you should lay off thinking he sucks so much, k?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are officially [censored] of the year. Welcome back Tilts McFabulous.

[ QUOTE ]
*** You are ignoring this user ***

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

K, ignore me, I could care less. And no I don't tilt (often, heh) and this was not a case of FPS induced by tilt, if that's what you're implying.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please reread. I was suggesting I might have bet/called the flop and CRed the turn. Bet/calling the flop and leading the turn is an entirely different line with much different considerations.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, it takes a brilliant mind to go from bet/call, bet/3bet, to bet/call, check/raise. I'm sorry for overestimating you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You honestly don't see why these are such different lines? I'm really not trying to be offensive, but I could explain it to you if you like ... it's an important difference.

[baronzeus]

Hah. Had to unignore you to read this.

[ QUOTE ]
And no I don't tilt (often, heh) and this was not a case of FPS induced by tilt, if that's what you're implying.

[/ QUOTE ]


reminds me of

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the Matador reference though. Was this a hand from that poker TV show or something? Or am I on drugs?

[/ QUOTE ]

So what was the result? I'm very curious.

[ QUOTE ]
So what was the result? I'm very curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

He showed me AK and MHWG.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, here's some level 3 thinking. He knows I know he is a rock. I cap with TT or even 99 here since I know that he knows that I respect him and therefore I must have a huge hand.

If he is an amazing player like he says you are, your turn check-raise is much more transparent than a cap preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of this thread has deteriorated, but I'll chime in on this one. I agree with BZ. I'll cap with any 2 that I would have raised here if I am HU v.s. a rock. If he is *really* a rock, I can get him to lay down on the flop to a scare card even if I miss, and if he raises the flop, I know exactly where I am.

Easy cap.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK, here's some level 3 thinking. He knows I know he is a rock. I cap with TT or even 99 here since I know that he knows that I respect him and therefore I must have a huge hand.

If he is an amazing player like he says you are, your turn check-raise is much more transparent than a cap preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of this thread has deteriorated, but I'll chime in on this one. I agree with BZ. I'll cap with any 2 that I would have raised here if I am HU v.s. a rock. If he is *really* a rock, I can get him to lay down on the flop to a scare card even if I miss, and if he raises the flop, I know exactly where I am.

Easy cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you miss the flop with aces?

And whether or not he raises the flop, I'll tell you where you are: almost always ahead.

[shant]

I think you guys are being a little hard on Oscar.

I don't think it's that bad at all to call this preflop. A rock is going to shutdown against a cap. Let's say he has QQ. You cap preflop.

Flop: 467
You bet, he calls.

If you call preflop, he will like his hand more. Same flop would probably go: You bet, he raises, you 3-bet, he calls. You gave up one SB preflop, but got 2SB's on the flop.

Checkraising the turn isn't as bad as I initially thought because you brough up a good point about the possibility that if he doesn't have AK he will have a club. The only problem I see with it is that Evan pointed out his AF is pretty passive for his VPIP, so even if he does have a high /images/graemlins/club.gif, he'll still check the turn through.

I think there are a lot of lines that all result in near the same amount of BB's being extracted, but they all depend on not capping preflop.

[HolyBejeesus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please reread. I was suggesting I might have bet/called the flop and CRed the turn. Bet/calling the flop and leading the turn is an entirely different line with much different considerations.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, it takes a brilliant mind to go from bet/call, bet/3bet, to bet/call, check/raise. I'm sorry for overestimating you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You honestly don't see why these are such different lines? I'm really not trying to be offensive, but I could explain it to you if you like ... it's an important difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are similar lines. If you think he will raise your bet, then you try the bet/3bet, if you think he will just call, then you check/raise.. Do you agree?

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take it easy guys. Its an easy cap for me if he's seen me cap with less and he won't give me credit. This is highly read dependant and if this guy weak then you might want to sit on it a little while.

[chief444]

He's taking [censored] in this thread because he's being an a$$.

He totally screws up this hand and then talks in circles about why the river was the only screw up. When in fact with the informatin he originally gave the river was fine.

He's a rock...he's not a rock...he's got AK...I play middle limits...I'm a 4-level thinker...blah blah.

You're right though shant. Calling preflop isn't that bad. Although as Brad pointed out against a rock when you're not getting that much postflop then it really is. But I have no idea if he's a rock or not. But whatever...generally speaking I agree with you that it's OK to call preflop IF he makes up for it postflop...and he didn't.

I'm done with this one though. Hopefully it gets locked soon.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take it easy guys. Its an easy cap for me if he's seen me cap with less and he won't give me credit. This is highly read dependant and if this guy weak then you might want to sit on it a little while.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't cap now, you won't be able to cap with less later and have him give you credit.

I want to be able to cap here with 88.

[shant]

Ah, I didn't see those posts Chief, I sort of skimmed a lot of this thread when I came back and there were 40 new posts. I agree that after seeing the results the opponent doesn't seem to be a rock. I'd say he is rockish in hand selection, but he's not passive at all with that river raise.

[chief444]

n/m

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys are being a little hard on Oscar.

I don't think it's that bad at all to call this preflop. A rock is going to shutdown against a cap. Let's say he has QQ. You cap preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya.. and he calls you down and gets owned.

Now, 100 hands later, you cap with 88 HU v.s. him. He has QQ/KK, the flop comes Axx. You bet, he *if he is really a weak-tight-rock* folds.

Imo, it is better to "loose" 1SB by overplaying/raising your weaker hands than to loose 1SB by underplaying/calling your monsters.

[shant]

Why would you cap 88 against a rock?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please reread. I was suggesting I might have bet/called the flop and CRed the turn. Bet/calling the flop and leading the turn is an entirely different line with much different considerations.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, it takes a brilliant mind to go from bet/call, bet/3bet, to bet/call, check/raise. I'm sorry for overestimating you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You honestly don't see why these are such different lines? I'm really not trying to be offensive, but I could explain it to you if you like ... it's an important difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are similar lines. If you think he will raise your bet, then you try the bet/3bet, if you think he will just call, then you check/raise.. Do you agree?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm sorry but I don't.

With a bet/call/lead line:

He's going to only raise with a K in his hand, and call down with anything else (like JJ/QQ). This is not good. (2BB on turn/river)

With KK he'll raise the turn and I'll have to call down unless I spike a club. (lose 3BB on turn/river, 4-1 against gaining an extra 2BB from a river raise)

With AK he will call the turn and raise a non club river (3BB on turn/river)


With a bet/call/CR line:

He's going to bet almost certainly with JJ/QQ (particularly with a club), and will almost certainly call the raise, fearing a semi-bluff (these guys don't like to be pushed around, so they call down) (3BB on turn/river)

He may reraise, in which case we are probably behind KK and can act accordingly. (same as above, lose 3 and might spike, so no different)

And with the likely AK, he will call and raise a nonclub river, which is precisely what I want here (a club river I would have led on). (4BB on turn/river, and 5 if I don't pussy out and raised the river like I should have).


So ... as you can see, the bet/call/CR line is worth 3/4+ BB when he has QQ/JJ or AK. However, the bet/call/lead line is 2/3 when he has QQ/JJ or AK. When he has KK it's probably even.

These are much different lines, and people often don't appreciate the importance of a good line. One is much more profitable than the other against villian's range.

[ QUOTE ]
He's taking [censored] in this thread because he's being an a$$.

He totally screws up this hand and then talks in circles about why the river was the only screw up. When in fact with the informatin he originally gave the river was fine.

He's a rock...he's not a rock...he's got AK...I play middle limits...I'm a 4-level thinker...blah blah.

You're right though shant. Calling preflop isn't that bad. Although as Brad pointed out against a rock when you're not getting that much postflop then it really is. But I have no idea if he's a rock or not. But whatever...generally speaking I agree with you that it's OK to call preflop IF he makes up for it postflop...and he didn't.

I'm done with this one though. Hopefully it gets locked soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about you read the thread and try to respond to the arguments/strategy in it instead of just insulting me?

[baronzeus]

I think you are the Matador, but even if you aren't, you might as well be.

[ QUOTE ]
Ah, I didn't see those posts Chief, I sort of skimmed a lot of this thread when I came back and there were 40 new posts. I agree that after seeing the results the opponent doesn't seem to be a rock. I'd say he is rockish in hand selection, but he's not passive at all with that river raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think people might be getting a little too focused on what I labelled him rather than on what his stats actually said about his play.

As I have said, I knew what his aggro factor was like, particularly on the river, even though I didn't actually look at those stats at the time. So I gave them here to give people an idea of what type of observational information I was working with in this hand.

Honestly, I am kinda stunned that this forum didn't know he had AK after the river raise. I included more than enough information to allow people to make that (basic) read.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are the Matador, but even if you aren't, you might as well be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand and I thought you were ignoring me.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you cap 88 against a rock?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I've done it many times. A few of those times, they mucked their QQ/KK face up when an overcard hit the flop.

Note, by rock I mean someone that is say the equivalent of 10/6. If they are 10/2, well, then they are only re-raising with AA and KK and I'm not capping.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys are being a little hard on Oscar.

I don't think it's that bad at all to call this preflop. A rock is going to shutdown against a cap. Let's say he has QQ. You cap preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya.. and he calls you down and gets owned.

Now, 100 hands later, you cap with 88 HU v.s. him. He has QQ/KK, the flop comes Axx. You bet, he *if he is really a weak-tight-rock* folds.

Imo, it is better to "loose" 1SB by overplaying/raising your weaker hands than to loose 1SB by underplaying/calling your monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is just wrong. This means the majority of the time you cap against this guy you will have the worst hand. An ace is only going to flop a fraction of that time. On top of that, a lot of rocks will just call you down with a pair of Kings or Queens anyway. There is a lot more value in misleading him about the value of your hand when you have aces. Since his 3-betting range is slim, you can get him to put a lot of bets in the pot as a big underdog.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you cap 88 against a rock?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I've done it many times. A few of those times, they mucked their QQ/KK face up when an overcard hit the flop.

Note, by rock I mean someone that is say the equivalent of 10/6. If they are 10/2, well, then they are only re-raising with AA and KK and I'm not capping.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a major -EV play, just for reference.

[HolyBejeesus]

I agree with everything you have written here. The two lines are not interchangeable. However, they both are designed to get the most bets in.

Which line you use depends on the turn card and opponent. Here, I will concede that bet/call, check/raise is better. However, the intention of my original post was, "get more bets in on the flop and turn," not that you must use that exact line.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with everything you have written here. The two lines are not interchangeable. However, they both are designed to get the most bets in.

Which line you use depends on the turn card and opponent. Here, I will concede that bet/call, check/raise is better. However, the intention of my original post was, "get more bets in on the flop and turn," not that you must use that exact line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I can't believe someone actually read my post carefully and responded politely. Kudos to you, sir.

If I could have figured out a way to get more bets in on the flop/turn, I would have! I just don't think against villian's range that I could have done much better. Maybe he would have gone to war on the flop with me with QQ/JJ/KK, but the chance that he folds AK is bad news for me. And I think he shuts down with QQ/JJ on the turn, probably.

I dunno, this was a very tough hand. I'm glad at least a few posters recognize that it wasn't a series of easy decisions, there was a lot to think about, and that the best way to play it against this particular opponent is quite open to discussion. A discussion where reasonable people can disagree without being jerks about it.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys are being a little hard on Oscar.

I don't think it's that bad at all to call this preflop. A rock is going to shutdown against a cap. Let's say he has QQ. You cap preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya.. and he calls you down and gets owned.

Now, 100 hands later, you cap with 88 HU v.s. him. He has QQ/KK, the flop comes Axx. You bet, he *if he is really a weak-tight-rock* folds.

Imo, it is better to "loose" 1SB by overplaying/raising your weaker hands than to loose 1SB by underplaying/calling your monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is just wrong. This means the majority of the time you cap against this guy you will have the worst hand. An ace is only going to flop a fraction of that time. On top of that, a lot of rocks will just call you down with a pair of Kings or Queens anyway. There is a lot more value in misleading him about the value of your hand when you have aces. Since his 3-betting range is slim, you can get him to put a lot of bets in the pot as a big underdog.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are going to call down their underpair, they are not a rock in my mind. I only do this to someone that will fold their underpair.

If I have position, then putting the 1SB in pre-flop will likely buy me a free card on the flop. If an A or K doesn't fall, and the rock checks to me, he has KK/QQ/JJ. I can then check behind on the flop and bet an 8 or A turn. If he leads the flop, I can fold. If an A or K falls on the flop and he bets, I can fold. If an A or K falls on the flop and he checks, I can bet and he will probably fold.

If you are in position, I think the 1SB is definitly worth it v.s. a rock since his hand will be so well defined and will probably be given a free card.

[Neal_Schon]

[ QUOTE ]
Any chance someone can lock this thread soon?

[/ QUOTE ]

NO.... only NOW can you lock this thread

http://www.jimicrowley.com/pics/neal.jpg

[ QUOTE ]
So the only hand that makes sense here is AK. He'd bet that on the flop, and he'd just call on the turn with it. When no /images/graemlins/club.gif hits the river, he is only scared of KK and AA, and he knows those are quite unlikely given he holds and A and a K and there is a K on the board (only 3 ways to make AA and one to make KK). So he is pretty confident that he has the best hand, and he raises me, just in case I am still semibluffing with QQ or on the off chance I will pay him off with KQ with the Q /images/graemlins/club.gif.


[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the case, then why do you think he didn't 3-bet you on the turn? He is willing to raise the river if a club doesn't come, why doesn't he re-raise the turn for your probably club flush draw?

I only play 6-12 so I'm just trying to work these ideas through in my head.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So the only hand that makes sense here is AK. He'd bet that on the flop, and he'd just call on the turn with it. When no /images/graemlins/club.gif hits the river, he is only scared of KK and AA, and he knows those are quite unlikely given he holds and A and a K and there is a K on the board (only 3 ways to make AA and one to make KK). So he is pretty confident that he has the best hand, and he raises me, just in case I am still semibluffing with QQ or on the off chance I will pay him off with KQ with the Q /images/graemlins/club.gif.


[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the case, then why do you think he didn't 3-bet you on the turn? He is willing to raise the river if a club doesn't come, why doesn't he re-raise the turn for your probably club flush draw?

I only play 6-12 so I'm just trying to work these ideas through in my head.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he wants me to bet into him on the river to continue my semibluff, if that is what it is, and he wants to be able to bet a non-club river and get a call.

He's also just a little scared of AA and KK, but not when I only call the turn.