KJ in the BB facing a CR from the SB with meat in the middle.

[BigEndian]

Loose-bad MP1, SB is unknown.

MP1 open-limps, folded to SB who completes, I check with K/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/club.gif

Flop: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif
SB checks. I bet. MP1 calls. SB raises. I 3-bet. MP1 folds. SB calls.

Turn: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif
SB checks, I check.

River: 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif
SB bets. I call.

Dancin wit mah se-elf, oh, oh, oh-oh.

- Jim

[BWebb]

I think I go bet, bet. I don't think the Q changes that much in the hand.

[BigEndian]

What range of hands do you put SB on?

- Jim

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
What range of hands do you put SB on?

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't list a read, so it depends.. but depending on reads, it could be:

Diamond draw, Kx, 4x, Qx.

His turn check is either a botched cr with Qx, 44, or a weak king fearing the Q pairing, or the diamond draw slowing down.

I would have bet the turn and folded to a CR unless the player is known to be super tricky. I'd also bet a non-diamond river (diamonds will fold, but worse king will call)

[brazilio]

Are you betting if checked to on the river? I see a bet out more often if they hit trips on the turn, but I think a K with a low kicker is going to happen most times here and they'll call down, or a retarded draw that'll pay the turn but not the river. Readless I have a tough time bet/folding the turn.

[Rico Suave]

Big Endian:

[ QUOTE ]
Dancin wit mah se-elf, oh, oh, oh-oh.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had the chance, I'd ask the world to dance and I'd be betting the turn...oh, oh, bettin the turn...oh, oh bettin the turn.

I think a Q is much more likely to lead the flop than to c/r after a bet and a call. With no reads, it is hard to narrow his range, but a flush draw, straight draw, a K, etc.

I will say, that I absolutely hate getting c/r in this spot...and some opponents will take the Q pairing as an opportunity to semibluff raise the turn with a draw. So, if you are completely lost on what to do when he does raise the turn (as I often am), then I guess I can understand the turn check. I think, though, if I bet, and he raised, I would still call down, but I suck.

--Rico

[BigEndian]

I'm not convinced a read outside of the action is very important here. The SB CRed two opponents. I would put him on at least a K. Two pair or a set are very possible with the draw-heavy board. I would only give him a small chance of having a draw by the way the action played out on the flop.

- Jim

[BigEndian]

Might be something I need a closer look at but when I was CRed on the flop with meat in the middle, my only two concerns were to get MP1 out and to possibly get to a cheap show-down. MP1 protects my hand a good bit against draws making this move so I feel my opponent thinks he has the best hand.

I do think that a Q is going to check to me on the turn. After I 3-bet the flop, he has every reason to think I'm going to bet the turn.

Edit: and I'm glad the Billy Idol reference wasn't wasted.

- Jim

[Rico Suave]

BigEndian:

[ QUOTE ]
I do think that a Q is going to check to me on the turn. After I 3-bet the flop, he has every reason to think I'm going to bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I agree. My reference to a Q checking was on the flop....I think a Q is more likely to lead the flop than c/r with "meat in the middle".

[ QUOTE ]
MP1 protects my hand a good bit against draws making this move so I feel my opponent thinks he has the best hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree that the SB has something decent to c/r both opponents on the flop...likely not a Q imo. I just think that it is going to be a draw quite often. I think you replied to someone else that you think it is a made hand much more often than a draw......I dunno.

[ QUOTE ]
MP1 protects my hand a good bit against draws making this move so I feel my opponent thinks he has the best hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Here is a completely random thought. Is MP so loose bad that we are better off keeping him in to keep sb's actions purer? Perhaps we just call the flop raise and turn bet? I think the board is a bit too drawy for it, but with a small pot, perhaps it is worth considering.

--Rico

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not convinced a read outside of the action is very important here. The SB CRed two opponents. I would put him on at least a K. Two pair or a set are very possible with the draw-heavy board. I would only give him a small chance of having a draw by the way the action played out on the flop.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it just the games I play in now, but I see people CR 2 others on the flop with flush and oesd draws all the time. Not everyone does it, but a lot do.

Maniacs will do this with second pair. Heck, I got pushed off a similar hand in a *live* game by a guy holding J9 on a K9x board just this weekend.

Hence, the request for reads.

[mikeyvegas]

I bet the turn with that board.

[BigEndian]

Do you let it go if you're raised?

- Jim

[Carmine]

#1- I think we are ahead on this flop like 90% of the time.
(I think 44, and a loose K4,Q4 wait until the turn)

#2- In my experiance the C/R means draw, middle pair, or
TPNK.

#3- I usually just call the flop raise and then raise a
safe turn card trying to get it HU. (I have no idea if
this is optimal, but it is working for me). I fold to a
3-bet. I bet out if checked to.

#4- I like the way Endian played it given his flop 3-bet
and the turn Q. You don't get bluffed off the best hand
and you induce a bluff from a busted draw on the river.

[elindauer]

Why did you bet the flop? You don't think MP will bet if you check? Are you afraid someone will pick up a draw in this < 3 SB pot?

With such a strong hand in such a tiny pot, you should put the pot at risk and check, in an attempt to get someone to bluff at it. There is not much risk of an outdraw compared to the gain of getting someone to put money in.

The main reason to bet is to cover yourself for those times you bet WITHOUT a king trying to steal the pot. With this loose-bad player in the hand in MP though, you aren't going to do that. So you check everything to him.

On the turn, a bet is in order, since your kicker is so strong. The bets you make from weaker calls and semi-bluff raises make up for the times you lose 2 extra bets to a Q.

Good luck.
Eric