98o - Standardish?

[Danenania]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, MP calls, Button calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero folds...

[Danenania]

Yeah?

[Apocalypse]

YEAH!

[baronzeus]

I usually just peel one here on the flop. JT and /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif are calling two cold anyways, so you're really only protecting yourself from an 8 with a worse kicker.

[setjes]

Nice try, but I think at least somebody has the ace too often to make this work out good for you (supposing he won't fold it). Besides, you will often get 3bet, what kinda sucks. I just think this play is better for something like a K-high flop. When MP calls 2 cold and the K falls on the turn ur pretty much done here, so good fold.

[Grisgra]

I probably check/call, then check/fold the turn UI. This line isn't bad, the problem is that it's a coordinated flop, and you'd have to keep hammering to the river. A flush draw sticks around, T9 or even JT probably sticks around, and if they call your flop bet and you check the turn then they could bet out again and you'll be folding the best hand. On the other hand, in the line you chose you're only paying one more SB, while increasing the chance that you win the hand against something like KQ or KJ or whatnot. But a button raise after limpers . . . that's probably a good-sized pocket or an ace, not KQ. The way most players play.

Which raises the question: If the turn is a blank, would you have led out? If the turn is a K but the MP didn't overcall on the flop, would you lead out?

[Apocalypse]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually just peel one here on the flop. JT and are calling two cold anyways, so you're really only protecting yourself from an 8 with a worse kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

and a lot of other crap people mistakenly call with in such a pot that is higher than an 8? checkcalling this flop in ep with this pot in the middle i guess one could consider as drawing for 2pair or a set or a redraw. You dont have odds for doing so. For me that leaves just the option for folding/checkraising. I don't see much harm in choosing either of those, so my read would be decisive.

[PassiveCaller]

I think calling is better, since you're going to end up check-folding and not firing again on almost every turn and he'll often interpret that as a flush draw or some draw and bet again and it's like giving him an extra SB.

[Jeff W]

I would fold pre flop and call the flop.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually just peel one here on the flop. JT and are calling two cold anyways, so you're really only protecting yourself from an 8 with a worse kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

and a lot of other crap people mistakenly call with in such a pot that is higher than an 8? checkcalling this flop in ep with this pot in the middle i guess one could consider as drawing for 2pair or a set or a redraw. You dont have odds for doing so. For me that leaves just the option for folding/checkraising. I don't see much harm in choosing either of those, so my read would be decisive.

[/ QUOTE ]

"A lot of crap" Even someone calling with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif x/images/graemlins/spade.gif here isn't far behind you.

Nor is Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

My point is Bad hands generally won't call two cold here but good ones (AKA ones that have you beat) will

[Apocalypse]

sorry if im not getting it. I say checkraise, to drive hands like QJo and Kxo out right? Because calling would get a lot of people holding these hands to stay in for one more sb? And therefor i say checkcalling is wrong because you almost HAVE TO improve on the turn to carry on? And that would be considered 'drawing'?

I dunno, im just not getting your answer or am misreading it? (my native language ain't english)

[baronzeus]

I don't understand why you don't think we have the odds here. We are getting 9.5:1 immediate here with 2 people to act behind us, with 4 solid outs, and one the completes a flush, and one backdoor straight draw. It's easy to fold the turn UI.

I see your argument but I don't think JT is ever folding, nor is any ace, nor is any two hearts, nor T9, and I think these comprise the majority of the hands that will cold call two here.

[NMcNasty]

Looks fine to me. The only way I might play it differently is by betting out the flop if I thought the button would be the type to raise with and check through with small pairs or suited 20s (or worse). In general though against unknowns I like your line. There are way too many gutshot and backdoor drawing hands your opponents could have for you to not show some type of aggression on the flop. The turn checkfold and preflop call seem pretty standard.