$2k PLO8 hand

[Wintermute]

$2000 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 5: * ( $2275.75 )
Seat 8: P1 ( $1280 )
Seat 10: * ( $2339 )
Seat 2: Hero ( $1970 )
* posts small blind [$10].
Hero posts big blind [$20].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 6d 5c 4d Ac ]

* folds.
P1 raises [$70].
* folds.
Hero calls [$50].

** Dealing Flop ** [ Tc, Jd, 3s ]

Hero checks.
P1 checks.

** Dealing Turn ** [ 2s ] (pot's about $150)

Your play/plan?

[Ribbo]

I would check, if the guy wants a free card i'm cool with that also. If he bets any amount, I would check raise the pot. I would then bet out the river so long as it doesn't come a queen.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
If he bets any amount, I would check raise the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? There are a lot of hands that might not be on a pure steal there, and you could be a huge dog even with the wheel wrap... (since he probably shares some of your draws due to his PF raise). For example,

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 40 enumerated boards containing 3s 2s Tc Jd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 5c 6d 4d 8 8 32 0 18 0 0 0.325
As 6s 2c 9d 22 32 8 0 0 14 0 0.675

I was thinking if you want to take an aggressive line, betting out and calling any raise would be the way to go... but I'm interested to hear your line of thinking on this.

[Ribbo]

Most of the time you can't make a big pot by betting good hands heads up out of position. You have to let the other guy do it. I tend to find players take it really personally sometimes if you check raise them, almost as if you are spitting at them in the face. Because of that they wont fold their complete garbage and you take all their chips.

[Wintermute]

Why are you convinced the other guy would have complete garbage if he bets after I check the turn?

Also, why have you decided you want to play a big pot at this point in the hand?

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you convinced the other guy would have complete garbage if he bets after I check the turn?

Also, why have you decided you want to play a big pot at this point in the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say that, I'm saying he doesn't have enough to call a check raise with. There are a ton of hands he would bet on the turn, of which not a significant amount can call a check raise pot bet and another bet on the river. If I do hit the river, i'm probably going to check to him again and let him represent the draw he was representing on the turn by betting and calling my raise. Then I get to check raise him again.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are you convinced the other guy would have complete garbage if he bets after I check the turn?

Also, why have you decided you want to play a big pot at this point in the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say that, I'm saying he doesn't have enough to call a check raise with. There are a ton of hands he would bet on the turn, of which not a significant amount can call a check raise pot bet and another bet on the river. If I do hit the river, i'm probably going to check to him again and let him represent the draw he was representing on the turn by betting and calling my raise. Then I get to check raise him again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're underestimating the quality of hands the raiser would bet. If you check-raise the turn and he calls, what do you do if the river brings:

-a spade
-a high card
-pairs the board (this one maybe an easy bluff decision)

If you miss your draw, I think it's very tough to bluff the river here again.

In addition, if you check-raise and he pushes, you are a 2:1 dog always.

I definitely see your point--this will be a steal bet a large amount of the time that can't call the raise. However, the times it's not a pure steal, I think you may be giving away more money than you are taking in on the times it is a pure steal and the raise works.

[emptyshell]

Bet out and call a raise. A raise means you are in trouble but probably still have 33% equity. c/r seems like suicide to me with so much money left behind. Since you don't even have a pair, you don't want some other crappy hand to be insulted into calling you.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]

Bet out and call a raise. A raise means you are in trouble but probably still have 33% equity. c/r seems like suicide to me with so much money left behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, that's what I was thinking. I lost my nerve (P1 is damn good and LAGgy) and checked, planning to call any bet. He checked behind.

River 4. We get all the money in and I'm dismayed to see him turn up A567 for the chop. But then I realize if the river bricks he definitely takes it down, and he probably only pays me off big on the river if a 6 falls.