A 2/4 hand at the Monte Carlo

[BBill]

Monte Carlo ran a few 2/4 tables for a group I was with on Tuesday night. The deck was hitting me pretty hard all night and there was only one hand that I went to the river with
and didn't win. It follows and any input is appreciated.

I'm dealt KK in the BBlind
UTG calls there is a mid position and a late position caller too
It gets to me I check.
This might be results oriented but I have not won a pot with KK the last 10 times it has been dealt to me (live) and with 3 callers I just want to see the flop
Flop is 7 2 9 rainbow
I bet
UTG raises middle P and late P fold I call.
turn is a Q with maybe 2 clubs on the board.
I check utg bets I call
River blank - no flush no straights
I check UTG bets I call
UTG shows pocket 7s for 3 of a kind and my kings are no good.

utg says "you shoud have raised kings pre-flop. I said I'd be out another bet if I did that because I didn't think UTG would fold to a raise with a bet already in and would never fold the set after the flop.

Question: do you always raise Kings from the BBlind with 3 or more callers ?
Would you fold 77 UTG to a raise from the BBlind ?
How would you have played KK in this position.

thanks in advance !

bbill

[JTG51]

You should have raised preflop and you should have 3-bet on the flop or check raised the turn. You have a big hand, don't play it like bottom pair.

I said I'd be out another bet if I did that because I didn't think UTG would fold to a raise with a bet already in and would never fold the set after the flop.

You couldn't have won this hand, there's no way UTG would fold 77 to a single raise preflop, but that doesn't matter. You are being results oriented. You lost a bunch of theoretical money on this hand. Whether you won this one or not is irrelevant. If you always play KK that way you'll be way, way behind in the long run.

Question: do you always raise Kings from the BBlind with 3 or more callers ?

You should raise and reraise with KK before the flop from any postion with any number of callers. You should keep raising until someone shows you AA. That may be a slight exaggeration, but that would be closer to optimal play than limping.

[MRBAA]

In low limit games, you encounter a wide range of playing styles. While what you say about losing "theoritical" money is correct in the abstract in this hand, in fact I've found that once you acquire some grasp of solid play the key to winning is adjusting to how the other players are playing. In this case, it sounds like once utg reraises on the flop you know you're beat. Many low limit players who would bet a draw or pair of nines would never reraise with less than two pair. Against many of the 2-4 online and 3-6 live players I've played against, calling the three bet and check folding the turn might be the right play. You should be ready to change gears if a particular player seems to notice that you'll fold and may be attacking you, but that can be to you advantage. If you play mechanically in these games, you are not making anything like the most out of your knowledge, IMHO.

[JTG51]

I think either I'm misunderstanding your post or you misunderstood the original post.

In this case, it sounds like once utg reraises on the flop you know you're beat.

Why? BBill didn't say anything about UTGs style of play. You just assume a player can't raise the flop with one pair? Also, there was no reraise, just a bet by BBill and a raise by UTG.

Many low limit players who would bet a draw or pair of nines would never reraise with less than two pair.

I agree, but again, there wasn't a reraise, just a raise.

Against many of the 2-4 online and 3-6 live players I've played against, calling the three bet and check folding the turn might be the right play.

Three bet?

I think you may have read more action into this hand than what there really was.

[MRBAA]

oops, you are right. But my overall comment on adjusting "theoretically" correct play based on how opponents play. Here, I would raise pre-flop almost every time. I might three bet the flop to see where I'm at, but I might well also then check fold the turn if I'm called or four bet on the flop. You have to know your players, but that's exactly my point.

Also, by adjusting your play you open up opportunities to readjust as well, which hopefully brings your superior hand-reading/player reading skills to the fore. Combine this with solid pre-flop hand selection, use of position and good understanding of pot and card odds on the fly, and you should be able to beat most low limit he games I've played in.

For example, I've played ultra-loose 3-6 games live and ultra-tight (but not particularly savvy) 2-4 games online and played very differently in terms of hand selection and betting tactics, but felt I was playing correctly for each game.

[JTG51]

I might three bet the flop to see where I'm at, but I might well also then check fold the turn if I'm called

Wow, I agree that adjustments need to be made, but it sounds like you are making the wrong ones. By far the most common mistake at low limit games is calling too much, and you are going to let someone calling your 3-bet scare you into checking and folding on the turn? I think many low limit players would bet a hand worse then KK on the turn if you 3-bet the flop and then checked to them.

More importantly, even if you concede 2 pair to your opponent checking and folding on the turn would be a huge mistake. Notice that if he does have 2 pair almost any turn card will give you 8 outs to beat him. Would you check and fold an open ended straight draw on the turn?

I don't disagree that adjustments need to be made. That's what poker is all about. I just disagree with the adjustments you'd make in this hand.

[lil']

I have to agree with JTG51 here, you gotta raise K-K preflop pretty much anywhere and everywhere unless someone gives you a damn good reason to believe A-A is out there. You got lucky by playing so timidly this time, but in the future you will cost yourself a lot if you play it that way every time.

Never hurts to be lucky, though. I bet the other player made that comment to you because he was disappointed he didn't get more of your money!

The picture under your name appears to be a fat bird throwing up. Very interesting...

[BBill]

Thanks for all of the input here. I did not preface the post with the fact that for that last 9 or 10 times I've been dealt KK (in live games) I've lost with it. I had raised with it, called with it, re-raised with it, check called with it and even folded it once in a tourney ( bad I know). This is being results oriented I know but the streak can not last forever. I appreciate discussion here on how to play it properly.

The picture under your name appears to be a fat bird throwing up. Very interesting

The bird picture is entitled "commentary" no hidden meaning. It's for sale if you are interested ? I noticed you need a picture !

[JTG51]

I did not preface the post with the fact that for that last 9 or 10 times I've been dealt KK (in live games) I've lost with it.

Yes, you did. Actually you said you've lost with it 10 times in a row.

I'm not sure what that has to do with this hand though. Past results have nothing to do with the current hand, you should try to play the current hand as well as you can no matter what the last 10 or 100 or 1000 hands were.

If you insist on being superstitious, I recommend you say, "I haven't won the last 10 times, I'm DUE to win this time!" /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[MRBAA]

jtg, here's what I've found at low limits: players play wildly differently both from one another and theory. In the hand listed, there wasn't an open-ended straight draw he could have made. Of course having outs would influence my calling or folding. I'm assuming that kind of knowledge. What I'm saying is that there are many players who would not bet on the turn after you three bet the flop, unless they had your pair beaten. Determining if you are against such a player is critical. If I were playing an aggressive player who I thought might bet a worse hand I might check/call the turn and river thinking I had enough chance of catching a semi-bluff to make it worthwhile.

For another example, I'll often bet the river with top pair against a player who I think would call all the way with middle or bottom pair. But against a player who I feel will only call if he can beat me and would fold a single low pair, I'll check.

Everyone agrees with having "feel" in principle. But in practice, I think it's hard to actually put it to work. I think doing so can be the difference between being a solid long-term winner and struggling to break even despite being the "best" player in many games.

[Bob T.]

You should have lost more money on this hand.

do you always raise Kings from the BBlind with 3 or more callers ?


Yes. You likely have the best hand, and they will call bets preflop, but they won't call after the flop. You will make more money by raising preflop with this hand.

Would you fold 77 UTG to a raise from the BBlind ?


NO. With the other callers in, you have the odds to flop a set, additionally, there are some other good flops, that you could see.

How would you have played KK in this position.


I would have raised preflop, bet the flop, when I got raised, I would have three bet. If I got fourbet, or if I was raised on the turn, I would slow down, and check call.

[bernie]

havent read the other replies yet.

first....reraise the flop and bet out on the turn if only called. this will also help gain info on your opponent

your questions...

"do you always raise Kings from the BBlind with 3 or more callers ?"

usually, but some times i get frisky and smooth it in. though not very often. the thing is, i raise with alot of stuff in this spot preflop, so they wont put me on KK or 'that' strong a hand. IF theyre watching a little that is. im much tighter, standardwise, when raising from the sb though.

i want to restate something, so youre sure not to skim over it. as it may give you (or someone else) some ideas: i raise with alot of stuff in this spot preflop, so they wont put me on KK or 'that' strong a hand. IF theyre watching a little that is.

"Would you fold 77 UTG to a raise from the BBlind ?"

no. why limp with a hand that cant withstand a raise behind it?

there are times to 'act' timid. but the reasoning has to be right. ive been there, losing with KK repeatedly. i think i posted about it long ago. more out of frustration and to get it off my chest than anything, i think.

the cards will turn, you just need a little confidence back and youll be fine.

when good hands go bad. we've all been there.

just call em 2 A-Holes when ya muck em. even though it's lady luck that has ya bent over the table. and she isnt exactly giving ya a massage. the bitch. im in line also for kickin her ass. hope there'll be some left when my time comes /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

though the line never seems to move

have a good one

b

[rharless]

Raise with KK every time, from any position, preflop.

Don't use your current streak as an excuse to play KK incorrectly. Eventually the streak DOES snap, and if you continue to play KK weakly, then you will be winning far less than you could with this hand. I sympathize with being gunshy due to your recent results, but be assured that raising KK is simply, mathematically, a must.

There's 169 different possible poker hands. Of those 169 hands, KK ranks #2. Do you want to play poker or not? Raise! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[elysium]

hi bill,
usually, from EP bill, because of your poor position, with KK, you want to play fast, getting in as many bets right away as you can. in this particular hand, if your opponent had capped, you would have a better read. as it is, with the SP, we can only guess. on the flop, short handed like this, after how you played the dang pre-flop, on that board, o.k., well yea bet out.

you know bill, opponent knowledge can be helpful at times. i'd go ahead and lose some money on this one unless the opponent knowledge thing interfered and got in my way. i would lose a lot here.

in this situation bill, with this board and opponent knowledge being equal, you must lose a lot. this is one of those hands that require for lack of a better word a substantial loss. i'm quite sure about this one bill. here, you must lose. hope this helps you.

[JTG51]

In the hand listed, there wasn't an open-ended straight draw he could have made.

My reference to the open ended straight draw was a hypothetical. I was trying to make the point that KK has 8 outs to beat 2 pair on the turn, the same number of outs as an open ended straight draw. I'm guessing you wouldn't think of checking and folding a straight draw on the turn with a pot of this size. You mentioned that many opponents will only bet the turn with two pair or better, and you’d think about checking and folding against those opponents. My point was, even if your opponent showed you 2 pair folding would be a big mistake. The open ended straight draw reference was a poor attempt to illustrate that point.

I still don't understand why you'd even think about checking the turn on this hand after you had 3-bet the flop, but that's a whole different discussion.