fold KK ?

[Wevie]

***** Hand History for Game 2544458075 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:14886948 Level:6 Blinds(100/200) - Tuesday, August 16, 09:01:32 EDT 2005
Table Table 39797 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: HERO ( $1285 )
Seat 3: brazosrower ( $505 )
Seat 5: Gistan ( $2000 )
Seat 6: turbospede ( $1945 )
Seat 7: mfcroy ( $500 )
Seat 10: paultja ( $1765 )
Trny:14886948 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Kd Kc ]
brazosrower is all-In [505]
Gistan folds.
turbospede is all-In [1945]
mfcroy folds.
paultja is all-In [1665]

HERO??

[lastchance]

6x BB. You're not going to get ITM folding here.

I think I call, but it's a somewhat of a tough one.

[tigerite]

I'd call, and pray that I see Ax, AK, QQ or something along those lines.

[Wevie]

I'm either going to have the stack to win this tourny here or I'm gonna bust out. I don't think I'll see a better opportunity before this is over.

Definitely, somebody has an Ace. And three people have the opportunity to suck out on me.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm either going to have the stack to win this tourny here or I'm gonna bust out. I don't think I'll see a better opportunity before this is over.

Definitely, somebody has an Ace. And three people have the opportunity to give me all their chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've Fixed Your Post.

[Wevie]

lol - yeah, thats much better.

Thoughts:

Cards are dealt - Oh, come on, somebody try to steal.

First Push - Sweet, he's gone

Second Push - Holy @#$ I'm gonna nearly triple up.

Third Push - OK, this is sweet, but what if......

[Maulik]

no.

[Phill S]

SnGs arent long or deep enough to be folding here, as much as you cant like running the board.

This is without you having a read on the last guy of course.

Phill
edit, i checked back, this is a 10+1 so im folding here approximately 0% of the time.

[Wevie]

OMG its a bad beat post:

HERO is all-In [1085]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, Qh, 4h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4c ]
brazosrower shows [ Ks, 4s ] a full house, Fours full of nines.
turbospede shows [ Ts, As ] two pairs, nines and fours.
paultja shows [ Qd, Qs ] a full house, Queens full of nines.
Wevie shows [ Kd, Kc ] two pairs, kings and nines.

[37offsuit]

[ QUOTE ]
brazosrower is all-In [505] could have any two
Gistan folds.
turbospede is all-In [1945] could be isolating with a small pair
mfcroy folds.
paultja is all-In [1665] ut oh. Now what?
HERO?? isn't as happy as he was when he saw KK

[/ QUOTE ]

One of two things is going on here. Either paultja has AK or QQ and recognized turbospede's isolation play or paultja has AA and is happy to have all this action. If the cards were flipped up and you saw AA, unless it was the short stack who had it you could fold.

This comes down to how certain are you. It certainly appears that one of these spots has AA, but it could be AK-AQ in two spots and a pocket pair in another. You fair very favorably in this spot.

The other option is to fold knowing that either two people are going out on this hand, or at the least one will go out and another will be crippled. If you're looking at two AK's or another split situation between the two bigger stacks, they may end up just dividing up the small stack, or doubling him up. That would be a disasterous result, considering it means you could have eliminated two players and crippled a third.

It's not an easy decision in my mind, and reads would tip this one way or another. Those who are saying essentially "easy call" are likely just those who will never fold Kings preflop ever. Never folding K's preflop can't be too bad EV wise, but I tend to think that there are times when it is a good move because of tournament or clear read situations.

[Karak567]

Easiest call ever.

[lastchance]

I think you're putting a bit too much credit to your opponents.

Here, as pauljta, I don't need a read to make a call with QQ there, very, very quickly.

I also think about JJ and AK, and probably push both of those as well.

And TT could be considered, maybe 99 or AQ, but those are somewhat doubtful.

KK should be good enough against that.

Also, second stack could be isolating with A7 or something.

And remember, other people will be looser than you.

Still, you're getting shown AA a bit more than I would like here, but I think it's still a push.

[bennies]

Yeps, I'll give them credit for this.

Short stack: Top 40%
Big stack: A8+, 55+
Other big guy: TT+, AK.

So, it's a call (and some fingers crossed, but isn't always....)

[Wevie]

[ QUOTE ]
Short stack: Top 40%
Big stack: A8+, 55+
Other big guy: TT+, AK.


[/ QUOTE ]

Completely agree. Actually what I would LOVE to see here is a low PP, Ax, and AK. QQ isn't a problem, but if two had Aces, their chances are pretty slim.

Amazing bad beat, though, with two boats.

[Daliman]

Next time any of you are thinking about folding KK preflop, just call or push anyways, and save some of that energy thinking about a warm, fuzzy kitten.

http://www.dinigroup.com/~atinsley/kittens/week4/dscn1822_l.jpg

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
OMG its a bad beat post:

HERO is all-In [1085]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, Qh, 4h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4c ]
brazosrower shows [ Ks, 4s ] a full house, Fours full of nines.
turbospede shows [ Ts, As ] two pairs, nines and fours.
paultja shows [ Qd, Qs ] a full house, Queens full of nines.
Wevie shows [ Kd, Kc ] two pairs, kings and nines.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're a bad person.

[37offsuit]

Although I'll admit that it doesn't happen often, there are in fact times to fold KK preflop. I'd agree it is VERY RARELY about your read of your opponents cards and ALMOST ALWAYS about payout considerations, stack sizes and number of opponents in the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Next time any of you are thinking about folding KK preflop, just call or push anyways, and save some of that energy thinking about a warm, fuzzy kitten.

http://www.dinigroup.com/~atinsley/kittens/week4/dscn1822_l.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

[37offsuit]

[ QUOTE ]

you're a bad person.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're being results oriented (OP might be posting for the same reason, but his question is valid at least for consideration).

[jedinite]

In my experience climbing the ladder from the $6 to the (current level) $22, I push this at the $11 level every time absent a read of the second caller as a very solid player. And baring that read, 90% of the time you find you're up against two medium pocket pairs and AK - AT, or even three medium pocket pairs. At $6 and $11, too many donks want to push any PP or any big ace when the blinds get to this level - panic sets in and they see the all-ins coming and they fall back on their WPT viewing training: any pocket pair must be good enough to put all my chips in the middle, right?

At a typical $11 table where these all-in players are not solid, I've even pushed QQ in a similar scenario at the $10+1 and found myself up against something like 33, 66 and TT. I think the second caller had the worst hand with the threes.

If the scenario was exactly right to fold KK (on the bubble, a small stack forced all-in by the BB next hand, plus you're facing elimination here covered by every one of the stacks, plus you are almost certain to move up in to third or second by staying out, you really need to take a bathroom break, etc etc). But this early on at the $11 level I'll push every time with KK and expect to be way ahead - and if I'm up against aces I'll just sigh and start another SNG. The tripple-up here is too good to pass up even though you're probably "only" a 60% favorite against the hand ranges of the three opponents, assuming at least one has Ax.

At the $22 level so far I've found much more solid play and I would be much less happy about pushing, but this early i'd still push. At $22 level I'd almost guarantee you're up against at least AK/AQ but you're still very likely to tripple up here at the $22. Again, for me its that an opportunity to tripple up here at the critical blind level is too valuable to pass when you're likely way out in front..

[Wevie]

Great replay, 37.

I hope I wasn't being results oriented. I know there is a VERY rare situations where folding KK preflop is a good idea and I was thinking this was as close as I've ever seen. I have no doubt I would push this again.

[tshort]

[ QUOTE ]
Great replay, 37.

I hope I wasn't being results oriented. I know there is a VERY rare situations where folding KK preflop is a good idea and I was thinking this was as close as I've ever seen. I have no doubt I would push this again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. At a $10+1, this is not even close. It is an easy easy call.

[Ogre]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I've ever layed down KK in a 800 chip game

[/ QUOTE ]