Naked nuts

[barongreenback]

Party $50 6max
3 handed
Button (Hero)($81) limps with J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif, SB($49) calls ,BB($30) checks

Flop (3 players)(pot=$1.50)
K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif
All check

Turn 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
SB bets $1.50, BB calls, Hero??

SB is a decent player, BB is new but looks bit loose. What's standard here?
What if I held AJT5r?
What if board is JoTs7o2s and I have str8 with no redraws?

Thanks,
James

[Tilt]

3 handed I would raise. The pot is still small enough that potting it won't get you into too much trouble at the river.

With more players and no redraws I would often just call and see how my hand looks at the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Here"s an example:I was playing in a game with Devilfish Ulliot. I bet, he called, and and off came a card that made me the second best straight. i checked, and he checked behind me. Had he bet, I woukd have thrown my hand away. Nothing came on the river to change things, and I checked. This time, he bet, I had a very hard time putting him on the nut straight. -Lyle Berman


[/ QUOTE ]

Devil HAd the nuts and Lyle called. You see what just calling does for you?

[autobet]

The standard play is to raise. You have the nuts in a multiway pot.

On the turn you are not worried about drawing hands as much since there is only 1 card to come, so you will almost always have +EV by getting in as much as possible. The exception would be if your opp was on a freeroll.

Another poster suggested calling to disguise your hand. Notice the example he posted was heads up against world class players. This (your hand) is a multiway pot and raising should max your EV in a large majority of situations.

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
Party $50 6max
3 handed
Button (Hero)($81) limps with J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif, SB($49) calls ,BB($30) checks

Flop (3 players)(pot=$1.50)
K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif
All check

Turn 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
SB bets $1.50, BB calls, Hero??

SB is a decent player, BB is new but looks bit loose. What's standard here?
What if I held AJT5r?
What if board is JoTs7o2s and I have str8 with no redraws?

Thanks,
James

[/ QUOTE ]

You call behind them. If they are bluffing, you want them to keep bluffing if the river is a blank, if they have the nuts, then you gain nothing by raising since you have no freeroll whatsoever. If the river is a scare card, you can bet and represent the draw and make someone else fold the same hand as you. If someone bets into you on the river, then you can fold it having not been freerolled for much.

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
The standard play is to raise. You have the nuts in a multiway pot.

On the turn you are not worried about drawing hands as much since there is only 1 card to come, so you will almost always have +EV by getting in as much as possible. The exception would be if your opp was on a freeroll.

Another poster suggested calling to disguise your hand. Notice the example he posted was heads up against world class players. This (your hand) is a multiway pot and raising should max your EV in a large majority of situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think just calling is perfectly acceptable on the button, for the reasons I gave in my other post. Sometimes I will raise, sometimes I will just call, it "all depends"

[barongreenback]

[ QUOTE ]

You call behind them. If they are bluffing, you want them to keep bluffing if the river is a blank, if they have the nuts, then you gain nothing by raising since you have no freeroll whatsoever. If the river is a scare card, you can bet and represent the draw and make someone else fold the same hand as you. If someone bets into you on the river, then you can fold it having not been freerolled for much.

[/ QUOTE ]
This hand may not be the best example but this was the thinking I was looking to explore. If the money goes in now I can't do better than split but if I go slow I give freecards. I may catch a river bluff or induce a crying call but I may also get bluffed. Although there's too little action so far to assume monsters are out there, this thinking is more important while the pot is small. It's more relevant vs better opponents.

Can anyone give situations where not playing fast is clearly correct/incorrect? What if the BB had folded on the turn?

James

[Ribbo]

Let us assume that I have top set on the turn and I bet out the pot into two guys. Both just call and river is a low blank that puts no draws up. I'm going to bet out the river since the fact that no-one raised the turn says to me that no-one has the nuts and my river bet is for value. I will call a raise depending on its size.
If on the turn I get raised I will call, which accounts for the bet I would have made anyway on the river. Only now, if the river is a blank, I am putting no more money in at this point. If however I hit, or miss and a different scare card hits. I may make a move since you obviously know I am on some sort of draw.

[autobet]

[ QUOTE ]
If the money goes in now I can't do better than split but if I go slow I give freecards.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could have the best hand.

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the money goes in now I can't do better than split but if I go slow I give freecards.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, which is why if you are playing against someone who is bluffing into you, you want them to keep doing it rather than fold their gravel hand. Reraising on the turn is committing yourself to be all-in, especially if you then get reraised. You have position on both your opponents USE IT, don't let them negate that position by being able to shove on the turn.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the money goes in now I can't do better than split but if I go slow I give freecards.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly, this is SSPLO right? The other day I pushed the turn with the nut straight no redraws in a big 5 way pot. After getting 3 callers I was worried about someone with the straight plus a redraw but instead I was called by the naked nut flush draw, bottom or mid set, and the ass end of the straight. Don't have the hand with me now, but I had a huge overlay in that pot. Now if only the flush hadn't hit /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Edit: My hand is obviously way different than this scenario, just wanted to point out that you will often get called with worse made hands by these players.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]

You have position on both your opponents USE IT, don't let them negate that position by being able to shove on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats a very good point.

[LA_Price]

Hey barongreenback,

I'd raise the pot here. Many times people are just betting a lesser hand here and the fact that he bet out of the sb means his hand is worse than if he called up front for example. If he does have the straight he probably doesn't have any redraws either. If he reraises you think for awhile before calling it and then pull the classic half pot bluff. Meaning consider betting any spade or full house on the end if he checks.

[Ribbo]

Why? If he is any good he knows you don't have any redraws on the river since when he reraised the turn and you just called, you did so because you were scared he had redraws. You're telling him you also have the straight and that your hand has no redraws whatsoever. If it did you would be shoving the turn.

[LA_Price]

because people play scared and they can't read hands well.