teh ultimate stop'n'go guru advice thread

[ChuckNorris]

These stop'n'go threads are making me sick /images/graemlins/frown.gif
It's SO easy to decide when to stop'n'go. It really is! Just ask yourself a few questions.

1) Should I just fold?
If not, on to question 2.

2) Are the stacks deep enough for any other raise preflop or bet on the flop than all-in to be reasonable?
If not, on to question 3.

3) Would pushinh preflop have any fold equity?
If not, on to question 4.

4) Am I closing the action preflop or is it irrelevant for the players acting after me whether I raise or call (like when you're SB and the original raise >= BB's stack)?

If yes, it's certainly the time for a stop'n'go, especially if you are opening the action on the flop. And even if you aren't the chance that villain misses the flop and check/folds is probably bigger than the chance that opponent calls preflop when (clearly) committed.


There are probably better guides for stop'n'gos somewhere if you just search for em... But this is how my thought process guess when I play. Probably made some silly errors there, feel free to correct me if so.

edit... I gave it a cooler topic so you won't just mistake it for another boring argument over a basic to-stop'n'go-or-not hand history post. And then I edited it another time, thanks for showing it.

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
3) Is the opponent(s) committed to calling my preflop all-in?
If not, on to question 4.


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I don't get this one. If you have FE preflop, just push. The stop-and-go is used to create postflop FE when you have none preflop (at least that is how I primarily use it).

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
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3) Is the opponent(s) committed to calling my preflop all-in?
If not, on to question 4.

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I don't get this one. If you have FE preflop, just push. The stop-and-go is used to create postflop FE when you have none preflop (at least that is how I primarily use it).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that is what I meant of course. TYVM for pointing it out. I was 100% certain I couldn't make a post with that many parts without saying the exact opposite to what I mean somewhere.

What is really sad, however, is that some people seem to really think that that's what the stop'n'go is for.

[fluorescenthippo]

good post. i need to be doing more stop and gos. ususally im too lazy/forget and end up pushing preflop.

[MegaBet]

sigh...if only it was that easy...

That's the beauty of poker, so many situations. It's usually best not to overuse a stop'n'go and just trust your instincts.

[tigerite]

Indeed. It's also best not to stop-and-go with strong hands like AK, because you don't want them to fold. The chance of you dominating them is too high. It should be only with marginal hands, and even those you think might be slightly behind (or even very behind in the case of small pp to big pp) but you can knock them off their hand on a high-card flop

[tshort]

The times I've used the Stop 'n' Go; I haven't thought, "Oh, I need to use the Stop 'n' Go here. I think:

1: I shouldn't fold this hand.
2: I need to call or reraise.
3: If I raise, I would have to push. If I push, the other guy should definitely call. If I call, the size of the pot will commit my remaining stack post-flop...

...and I end up pulling off a "Stop 'n' Go".

My point is: analyze all options and decide which option will give you the most equity for the hand. The option you choose pre-flop presents a new problem post-flop. You then choose which option gives you the most equity. We should analyze all options in a decision, factoring the table dynamics, and choose one in order to get the highest expected value possible out of the hand. Sometimes, you make a pre-flop decision because you think it will give you more equity on your post-flop decision.

Sure, there will be situations where you pull off a "Stop 'n' Go," but this should just be a side effect of analyzing your options and choosing the best one.

Analzye and choose from options rather than choosing what you will do from a set of standard "poker moves."

You need a rule that formulates why I *shouldn't* do the stop and go with a great deal of hands.

IE:

5)My hand is unlikely to be a large favorite preflop.

This is why you would never make this play with AA, KK, QQ AK etc etc.

My *ideal* stop and go hand seems to always be KJ. Always seem to have that hand when the perfect situation arises. I think its pretty fitting of the hand ranges with which I like you use this move.

[ChuckNorris]

In response to Megabet and tigerite:

The use of stop'n'go, when it should be used, is usually pretty much unquestionably the best play, and can easily be proven so.

[ QUOTE ]
Indeed. It's also best not to stop-and-go with strong hands like AK, because you don't want them to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing personal, but this is just so awfully wrong that it hurts. Come on, you "agree" with Megabet's "poker is beautiful cuz there are so many situations" message with a blanket statement that doesn't even apply into most situations.

Say you're heads up against an opponent with 250/500 blinds and stacks of 4000 for the both of you. The opponent, now in small blind, has raised every hand to 4BB. So they raise to T2000 again. You know for a fact that they will call your possible reraise with any two, as they should, since they're getting 3:1 odds for the call. You hold AK, so you decide to push because it's so cool to be such a leet dominator, even though you know there's a possibility for the opponent to fold to stop'n'go, since you did it with a crappier hand earlier in an identical situation.

AK against a random hand is a 65% favorite. By pushing preflop, knowing that they will call, you win

0,65 * 8000 - 4000 = 1200

chips on average, if we treat your BB as part of your stack just to make the numbers neater.

Now, if you reckon that the villain will fold x% of the time to a stop'n'go, you win 100% - x% of the time the previously calculated sum, and x% of the time you steal villains 2000 chips uncontested. Thus, you win

1-x * 1200 + x * 2000

chips on average. It's easy to see that if villain folds to the stop'n'go at any time, it's profitable, and if they never fold, it's no worse than pushing preflop. The bigger x is, the more stop'n'go pwns over pushing preflop.

Ok, now you can complain how my example sucks because villain is pushing air and AK is so great because it has the possibility to dominate Ax and Kx. Let's say villain pushes top 30%, and calls the reraise preflop every time.

AK against Ax, K5, Q9, JT, 22 (30,4%) is again a 65% favorite. AK against the unrealistic range of Ax, Kx, 22 is only a 67% favorite. (Numbers courtesy of Poker Calculator.) I won't bother redoing the numbers with AK being a +2% fave.

If you still have doubts and think that I especially planned some kind of an unrealistic or especially rare example to prove my point, you can easily calculate other situations like this.

If my math is incorrect, please point that out too.

I think I should actually thank you guys for forcing me to do this! TY /images/graemlins/smile.gif

edit... lol, while typing this there came out two or three other anti-stop'n'go-activists' responses... I think I'd better go to bed now. Chew on this example, and be welcome to give me others to show how much it sucks to do stop'n'go with AK. And yeah, I do understand that you obviously don't want to do a stop'n'go with AA everytime you would do it with 32o.

[ QUOTE ]
In response to Megabet and tigerite:

The use of stop'n'go, when it should be used, is usually pretty much unquestionably the best play, and can easily be proven so.

[ QUOTE ]
Indeed. It's also best not to stop-and-go with strong hands like AK, because you don't want them to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing personal, but this is just so awfully wrong that it hurts. Come on, you "agree" with Megabet's "poker is beautiful cuz there are so many situations" message with a blanket statement that doesn't even apply into most situations.

Say you're heads up against an opponent with 250/500 blinds and stacks of 4000 for the both of you. The opponent, now in small blind, has raised every hand to 4BB. So they raise to T2000 again. You know for a fact that they will call your possible reraise with any two, as they should, since they're getting 3:1 odds for the call. You hold AK, so you decide to push because it's so cool to be such a leet dominator, even though you know there's a possibility for the opponent to fold to stop'n'go, since you did it with a crappier hand earlier in an identical situation.

AK against a random hand is a 65% favorite. By pushing preflop, knowing that they will call, you win

0,65 * 8000 - 4000 = 1200

chips on average, if we treat your BB as part of your stack just to make the numbers neater.

Now, if you reckon that the villain will fold x% of the time to a stop'n'go, you win 100% - x% of the time the previously calculated sum, and x% of the time you steal villains 2000 chips uncontested. Thus, you win

1-x * 1200 + x * 2000

chips on average. It's easy to see that if villain folds to the stop'n'go at any time, it's profitable, and if they never fold, it's no worse than pushing preflop. The bigger x is, the more stop'n'go pwns over pushing preflop.

Ok, now you can complain how my example sucks because villain is pushing air and AK is so great because it has the possibility to dominate Ax and Kx. Let's say villain pushes top 30%, and calls the reraise preflop every time.

AK against Ax, K5, Q9, JT, 22 (30,4%) is again a 65% favorite. AK against the unrealistic range of Ax, Kx, 22 is only a 67% favorite. (Numbers courtesy of Poker Calculator.) I won't bother redoing the numbers with AK being a +2% fave.

If you still have doubts and think that I especially planned some kind of an unrealistic or especially rare example to prove my point, you can easily calculate other situations like this.

If my math is incorrect, please point that out too.

I think I should actually thank you guys for forcing me to do this! TY /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Beat me to it.

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
Beat me to it.

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I'm sorry but english isn't my native language. Care to explain what you mean by this phrase? /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Beat me to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry but english isn't my native language. Care to explain what you mean by this phrase? /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if you're joking or not. It means you did it before me.

[tigerite]

Hang on a minute, I only said "best not to", not "there will never be a situation where you should stop and go with AK" - heck, I've done stop and go's with AK before.

As with everything in poker, it depends. But there is nothing wrong with getting it in as a 65% favourite, even if they are making a "pot odds" call, etc (they therefore made a mistake by raising in the first place). Stop and go'ing here lets them off the hook with regard to that mistake for less than it should.

[bennies]

Nice post.

The basic problem with a stop and go is this: You give your opponent the chance to see a flop. He can sit back, watch you push on the flop and then decide if it's worth calling. (By pushing preflop, at least we always double up when we win.)

But assuming we plan for a stop and go, having called preflop, on the flop I reserve the option not to go through with it. It makes sense to keep my last chips if the flop is bad for me and probably good for the opponent.

But what flops are good for me, and what flops bad?

Example: Good flop: 1) coordinated cards, 2) high cards (if your opponent has a pocket pair).

Example: Bad flop: JJ4 (your opponent will never put you on a J and will therefore not fold his pp, and not his high cards either. All they will fold are random starting hands, Q7o, whatever, meaning you could only push such a flop against someone who is very loose/stealing preflop.

Comments? Having Stopped, what flops would make you think twice about the Go?

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
What is really sad, however, is that some people seem to really think that that's what the stop'n'go is for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that a sad thing? Doesnt that work to your advantage as a player? Lets face it. Poker is a game where you are working in DIRECT competition with everyone else at your table. So why would you want your opponents to have one more tool in their arsenal to beat you?

[schwza]

this post has serious errors in it.

the problem with this argument is that it ignores the fact that villain will call with his good hands and fold the bad ones. the correct way to look at it is to figure when villain folds and you have AK, do you want him to?

assume villain never folds a pair on the flop. with 4k in the pot and a push of 2k, i don't think this is unreasonable. if villain will often fold a pair, then a stop n go might be right, but for now assume villain does not fold a pair.

so times that villain flops a pair or has a pp, sng is identical to push.

when villain does not flop a pair, do we want him to fold? it depends.

if we have a pair and he does not, his fold on the flop is very correct and we lose out big time, as he's drawing nearly dead.

if neither of us has a pair and we dominate him, his fold is correct, as he's drawing to 3 outs getting 3:1. so we don't want him to fold.

if neither has a pair and we don't dominate him, we're pretty indifferent. villain is getting 3:1 and is ~24% to win the pot, so we don't really care if he folds or not. remember we're heads up, so we don't care about variance.

it's possible we'll sometimes fold out a hand like 33, that's most likely to happen when an A or K is on the board - again, a disaster for us. i think any equity we gain from pairs folding when they're way ahead is totally swamped by making non-pair hands fold when we have them completely smoked.

edit: this was a response to chucknorris's AK stop n go post. forgot to mention we have AK though /images/graemlins/tongue.gif thanks for pointing it out.

[bennies]

It seems to me you missed a few:

If neither has a pair and we're behind
If neither has a pair and we're dominated.

These are the times we want villain to fold and in fact the whole reason (as you know) for making the stop 'n go.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
You need a rule that formulates why I *shouldn't* do the stop and go with a great deal of hands.

IE:

5)My hand is unlikely to be a large favorite preflop.

This is why you would never make this play with AA, KK, QQ AK etc etc.

My *ideal* stop and go hand seems to always be KJ. Always seem to have that hand when the perfect situation arises. I think its pretty fitting of the hand ranges with which I like you use this move.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is on the right track, but it should be:

5a) when he folds on the flop, i am happy

[ChuckNorris]

Schwza, yes, you are right that my math was over simplistic. But when you stop'n'go you should always keep in my mind that if you like the flop enough, you have the option of checking and calling villain's flop push. In these kinds of situations they rarely check behind you, or fold to your very suspicious looking push on the turn after checking the flop. This is pretty essential when stop'n'going.

[ChuckNorris]

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[ QUOTE ]

What is really sad, however, is that some people seem to really think that that's what the stop'n'go is for.


[/ QUOTE ]
Why is that a sad thing? Doesnt that work to your advantage as a player? Lets face it. Poker is a game where you are working in DIRECT competition with everyone else at your table. So why would you want your opponents to have one more tool in their arsenal to beat you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I thought about it when posting that. It's great that people at my tables make mistakes, obviously. But peoples' stupidity is still always sad too. Even if it's lucrative and funny.