9/18 vs. pwofesshunal bowlah

[DanS]

As I was walking into Casino San Pablo, the 6/12 hit a jackpot. So, lucky me, they cranked up a 9/18 half an hour later. My main opponent is Clay, a loose passive awful player who once told a prop nonchalantly at the table that before poker, he subsidized his income with bowling. I almost snorted my coke out my nose when he said that beauty. I have 3 hands to share. I'm in 9 seat, Clay's in 1:

1) 6-handed. One limper, I raise 7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif on button. Clay calls in BB, limper calls. Flop is Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/club.gif . Check, check, I bet, Clay calls, limper folds. Turn is K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif , check-check. River Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif . Check-check.

2) 7-handed. I raise A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif K /forums/images/icons/club.gif UTG. Clay calls LP, heads up to the flop. Flop is Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif , I bet and Clay calls. Turn is K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif , check-check. River K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif , bet-call.

3) 6-handed. I raise UTG+1 with 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif , Clay calls on button and BB comes along. Flop is Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif , checked to me, I bet, they both call. Turn T /forums/images/icons/heart.gif , check to me and I bet again. River A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif , I think the better of betting and bet anyway, they both call.

Non-elysium comments, please.

[DanS]

1) Clay bullet folds, and I bullet fold behing as soon as I know the dealer knows it's my pot.

2) My hand is good, Clay doesn't show.

3) As I'm biting my lip so hard I think I can smell blood, I fold without showing (mistake?). BB shows A4o, Clay shows A2o for rivered no pair, nobody had a heart draw. I felt like the river bet here was the only glaring mistake I made on these three hands.

Dans

[haakee]

I haven't looked at the results yet...

1) I bet the turn, and failing to bet the turn, I bet the river. I think you win this hand.

2) Seems fine.

3) I check the river. I'm pretty sure you lose this hand.

[astroglide]

hand 1: bet the turn. he won't fold when you check, but he will be more inclined to bet into you on the river (which means you pay 1 bet either way, but one of them gives him a chance to fold). another factor is that you can river a 5 and make an extra bet if he calls. people will call this flop and this turn with stuff like ATo all the time, even heads up.

hand 2: interesting check - i don't really dislike it.

hand 3: definitely check the river.

[Ed Miller]

I have to say, I don't really understand your play on any of these hands. Clay's problem is that he calls too often and doesn't raise enough, correct? If so, then in hand one, why aren't you betting the turn and river for value? In hand two, why on earth aren't you betting the turn? He calls too much and doesn't bet enough, correct? In hand three, I don't like your open raise with 55. Your opponent (who has position on you) calls too much, correct? IMO, you don't make your money by playing 55 out of position in a raised shorthanded pot.

[DanS]

While I don't think any of the plays were terrible (except for not checking it down with 5's, I think the check with AK was good. The guy's drawing so thin (maybe five outs), I want him to pay off the river. Your description of him was right, but at that point I had forgotten past encounters with him enough that I forgot exactly how much of a calling station he is. If I had seen him call with A2o on the turn (see hand #3) earlier, I would have bet with more impunity in hands #1 and 2.

Dan

[lysis]

"My main opponent is Clay, a loose passive awful player"

I'm gonna take this sentence and run with it.

From my experience, this type of player will call to the river (although not necessarily call the river), with any pair or poor draw on the flop (without regard for pot-odds), and will often call the flop with nothing, in order to pick up a draw or a pair on the turn.

"1) 6-handed. One limper, I raise 7 7 on button. Clay calls in BB, limper calls. Flop is Q 6 3 . Check, check, I bet, Clay calls, limper folds. Turn is K , check-check. River Q . Check-check."

Pre-flop I would usually only raise with 77 in order to get it heads up with the EP limper. But in this case you know you're not gonna get it heads up, cause Loosey Goosey is in the BB.

But there is still some value in raising pre-flop, with the hopes that the EP player will fold on the flop unimproved leaving you with Mr. Fishy. So despite having to face two players with 77, I can't disagree with a pre-flop raise here.

The texture of the flop is perfect for your hand. There is only one over card, and a potential straight draw that you have partially blocked. You absolutely have to bet, with the hopes that EP folds.

On the turn, heads up with a WEAK and loose player, I would absolutely bet. Why? Cause I am not afraid of a check-raise from a weak player. And if he does check-raise, then I think I'm safe to release the hand. If he calls a turn bet, then I can consider checking behind on the river unimproved. Note that this is only against this opponent. Against others, I would probably have to check the turn and call any river bets.

On the river I think it's a borderline decision that depends on this particular opponent. Will he call with a 6, or a 3? If so, then bet away, cause again, it's doubtfull you'll get check-raised. If not, then I might still bet, cause I just like betting more than checking :-)

"2) 7-handed. I raise A K UTG. Clay calls LP, heads up to the flop. Flop is Q 6 3 , I bet and Clay calls. Turn is K , check-check. River K , bet-call."

Pre-flop and Flop I like. Turn I think is a HUGE mistake. I am assuming you checked to him so you could check-raise? He is a weak player! He probably won't bet without a hand that beats yours (i.e. he probably won't bet his Q), but he will call with a TON of worse hands (any pair, any draw), cause he wants to get to that river. Value bet away against weak calling stations!

"3) 6-handed. I raise UTG+1 with 5 5, Clay calls on button and BB comes along. Flop is Q 3 2, checked to me, I bet, they both call. Turn T, check to me and I bet again. River A, I think the better of betting and bet anyway, they both call."

Pre-flop is a touch thin, cause the calling station in LP will attract a crowd, and you will remain out of position throughout the hand. But in a shorthanded game, it's raise or fold territory, so the decision wasn't "bad" - calling would be "bad".

Once again, a great flop for your hand. Bet away.

The turn is where things get shaky, cause not only was the flush draw made, but another card has landed in the playing zone. In this spot I would be wondering to myself why the 3rd player called on the flop, and might chose to give up. But I don't have a problem with the bet.

On the river, I think you probably have to give up, cause it's pretty hard to put even one opponent on a hand that calls the turn and remains behind on the river (perhaps a lone K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ?), let alone two opponents.

lysis

[DanS]

Hi Lysis,

"From my experience, this type of player will call to the river (although not necessarily call the river), with any pair or poor draw on the flop (without regard for pot-odds), and will often call the flop with nothing, in order to pick up a draw or a pair on the turn. "

Bingo.

"On the turn, heads up with a WEAK and loose player, I would absolutely bet. Why? Cause I am not afraid of a check-raise from a weak player. And if he does check-raise, then I think I'm safe to release the hand."

This is a great point, and one of the big flaws of my game. I don't lay down to turn check-raises frequently enough. I think it's one of the main problems with my game, in that I fear that decent players (which there's more of at 8/16 to 15/30 than lower) will smell my ability to make reasonable laydowns and run all over me. It's not true, prolly, but I still have that paranoia. But you're right...this guy didn't raise ONCE in the hour I had time to play, but must've called like 50-60% preflop. His raise(s) must speak volumes.

"On the turn, heads up with a WEAK and loose player, I would absolutely bet. Why? Cause I am not afraid of a check-raise from a weak player. And if he does check-raise, then I think I'm safe to release the hand. If he calls a turn bet, then I can consider checking behind on the river unimproved."

Good point. He hasn't raised ONCE, what suggests he'll bet his hand for me? I can't check behind as I'm out of position, but I don't like a river check with TP/TK and a ragged board against a guy that will call down with most anything.

I think I stayed away from what I thought were the thin bets against this guy because I didn't want to discourage his passive play. But maybe I'm just justifying the couple of bets I missed and the bet (with the fives) that I gave away!

Dan

P.S. Bad Beetz, you know who I'm talking about?

[Ed Miller]

So when I say it, I'm full of it... but when lysis says it... /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

I think I stayed away from what I thought were the thin bets against this guy because I didn't want to discourage his passive play.

"Thin" bets are precisely how you beat calling stations! If they call down with fourth pair then you bet third pair for value. They are passive, so you need never fear a raise when betting "thin"... you can safely just fold. This is the magic recipie for beating calling stations: if you make a hand (basically any hand), bet it. If you don't, don't bet. Calling stations are the ideal opponents because the recipie for beating them is so simple... but if you don't bet your hands, then you will indeed have trouble beating them. You missed three crucial bets in your three hands.