Some AAxx situations

[kitaristi0]

What would you do in these situations? Assume it's a PP low limit table (10-handed) and you have no reads. I'm talking LO8 here, but all PLO8 comments are also welcome.

1) You're UTG with AA79. Automuck, fold, call or raise?

2) You're UTG with AA2x. Call or raise?

3) You're on the button with AA79 after 5 limpers. Fold, call or raise?

4) You're on the button with AA39 after 5 limpers. Call or raise?

Edit: How would your plays differ if the hands where single- or double-suited?

Note: The difference between automuck and fold, is that automuck is automatic and done without a blink of an eye. Fold means that in extremely favourable circumstances you might consider playing it.

[DeadMoneyOC]

1) Should be an instamuch but is usually just a fold for me. I like to he-haw when I see AA in my hand for a second a two before I fold.
2)Raise. I want to be HU for up against as few opponents as possible so I can improve my scoop potential. Even if you get called by everyone you still have A2 in your hand and a pretty nice pot where it is more* likely that your wont get quartered if you make a low.
3) Same as #1
4) Limp

I dont think in these instances it makes a big difference if these hands are suited or not.

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]


1) You're UTG with AA79. Automuck, fold, call or raise?

2) You're UTG with AA2x. Call or raise?

3) You're on the button with AA79 after 5 limpers. Fold, call or raise?

4) You're on the button with AA39 after 5 limpers. Call or raise?



[/ QUOTE ]

1. automuck
2, call
3. fold
4. call


Suerte,
Jonathan

[Ribbo]

You sir, are a terrible player. I hope nobody takes what he wrote seriously.

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Should be an instamuch but is usually just a fold for me. I like to he-haw when I see AA in my hand for a second a two before I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can personally count the times I have folded AA preflop in a plo8 game on one hand. It's just costing you money not to see a flop with this hand, and if anyone pots it behind you after calling preflop, pot them back and shove the flop if it doesn't come 3 low cards.
[ QUOTE ]
2)Raise. I want to be HU for up against as few opponents as possible so I can improve my scoop potential.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is what we call in the trade "talking out of your backside". The more callers you get, the more value your AA2 has. Just because you lack any poker skills to know how to play it post flop is no excuse to tell other people they should raise "to get it heads up". You raise for value, because it's one of the most profitable hands in poker. You absolutely positively do not care how many people call. I would personally sometimes raise, sometimes call, depending on how I feel.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1147590

Double suited A234 against unsuited AA79 is a 51/49 underdog. AA even with two raggedy cards still should be played. And if you don't think a 2% edge is relevant, then take a walk down Las Vegas Strip sometime. All those buildings with the flashing lights were built off a 2% edge....

[sy_or_bust]

Limit and pot-limit play quite differently. In a loose-passive limit game I fold weak AA hands UTG (e.g. AA79) and call with the better ones. I'm always looking for reasons to play decent AA-low/high hands against a probable field, even OOP, like A5sAT (suitedness is very important IMO). If this is a tight-aggressive game, I fold more often and open-raise much more than call from all positions.

In pot-limit I'm going to raise or limp-reraise AA a lot, and not fold very much. e.g. 3) and 4) are both opportunities to put in a big pot raise and "narrow the field." In reality you don't mind a few weaker hands calling the raise because you have an edge and the ability to put in a huge flop raise when it seems favorable. Still, sometimes 3) may be correct to call, IMO, though 4) is always always a raise.

The big difference is that AA alone has very little showdown value in limit, but huge value in pot-limit when a big flop/turn raise can often get it heads-up against a pretty weak two-way draw.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
You sir, are a terrible player. I hope nobody takes what he wrote seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy, easy, he's probably talking about limit. (Although I'd personally never fold these hands in a limit game)

[Wintermute]

PLO8:

1) You're UTG with AA79. Automuck, fold, call or raise?

call

2) You're UTG with AA2x. Call or raise?

call

3) You're on the button with AA79 after 5 limpers. Fold, call or raise?

raise

4) You're on the button with AA39 after 5 limpers. Call or raise?

raise

Edit: How would your plays differ if the hands where single- or double-suited?

zero


Note: The difference between automuck and fold, is that automuck is automatic and done without a blink of an eye. Fold means that in extremely favourable circumstances you might consider playing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[GooperMC]

Ribbo, you and I have argued about this a couple of time in the past and I think that you are starting to convince me however playing naked AA post flop takes a lot of skill. For those of us who aren’t as good as you, mute, greg, … post flop, limiting the field makes AA easier to play and therefore more profitable (for us).

I agree that if you could play perfect post flop raising any AA would be profitable but for those of us who can’t, calling or even folding occasionally may be correct.

[got0uts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) Should be an instamuch but is usually just a fold for me. I like to he-haw when I see AA in my hand for a second a two before I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can personally count the times I have folded AA preflop in a plo8 game on one hand. It's just costing you money not to see a flop with this hand, and if anyone pots it behind you after calling preflop, pot them back and shove the flop if it doesn't come 3 low cards.
[ QUOTE ]
2)Raise. I want to be HU for up against as few opponents as possible so I can improve my scoop potential.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is what we call in the trade "talking out of your backside". The more callers you get, the more value your AA2 has. Just because you lack any poker skills to know how to play it post flop is no excuse to tell other people they should raise "to get it heads up". You raise for value, because it's one of the most profitable hands in poker. You absolutely positively do not care how many people call. I would personally sometimes raise, sometimes call, depending on how I feel.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1147590

Double suited A234 against unsuited AA79 is a 51/49 underdog. AA even with two raggedy cards still should be played. And if you don't think a 2% edge is relevant, then take a walk down Las Vegas Strip sometime. All those buildings with the flashing lights were built off a 2% edge....

[/ QUOTE ]

I had this hand happened once at PLO8 $200.

I was UTG with AA9J ss. I limped, some player raised to $8, few callers. I potted it back to something like over $40, one caller.

The pot was over $100, the caller had less than $90 left.

I prepared to shove in on the flop, no matter what.

The flop had two high cards all suited.

I reluctantly shoved in. The caller had the flush.

Did I play it right?

[Ribbo]

Usually when you see a flop like that, your opponent has an ace. He can't fold it because it's probably got a deuce attached to it and it's likely suited. He knows you have two aces.
If you check the flop to him and he has the flush , he will usually shove at this point. If you check the flop to him and he doesn't have the flush, he will likely think "hmmm I have the ace of hearts, 3 clubs are showing and I know my opponent has two of the three aces left in the deck, so it's quite likely he might be checking the nuts to get me to bluff. So I check behind him".
On that flop with the way your opponent played the hand I think it's exactly 50/50 whether your opponent hit the flush wanted or not. I would check and fold to a pot bet, if he checks behind me I would pot the turn because he thinks I have it.
Likewise though, if I flopped the nuts, I would also check to him if it came 2 high cards.

[gergery]

First off, the answers are quite different for Limit vs. PLO8. (And can be quite different for rainbow vs. double suited.).

For example, AA is the best 2-card holding in PLO8 by a good ways. But A2 is the best holding in LO8, tho its closer. My post focuses on limit.

And by best I don’t mean “wins most in twodimes calcs”, I mean, “win most money in actual play”, taking into account HOW MUCH you’ll win when you win with your good hands, HOW MUCH you’ll lose when you lose with your bad hands, and how often you’ll get opponents to make incorrect folds.

For Limit, I think Ribbo’s answer is misleading at best.

The problem with bad AAxx in loose Limit games is that it tends to win smaller pots, and it doesn’t do as well multi-way, both in twodimes calcs and in actual play. This is because a significant part of its strength is from winning high unimproved, which means its opponents did NOT hit their hands. Which means the opponents are not putting lots of money in.

Here is ribbo’s example
As 7s Ad 9h 0.509
5c 4c Ah 2h 0.491

But the problem is that if you get a high flop, AA will win small pot. But if you get a low flop, then A2 can jam, and AA won’t know where it is. So AA will get outplayed because it will make more incorrect decisions. And, the hand with position will be able to make better decisions, which is worth some equity. So of the 50% of the time AA wins, A2 won’t be giving much money. But in the 49% times where A2 wins, AA WILL be giving money. This makes A2 a MUCH more profitable hand, even tho the equity at showdown is very close. This is primarily because the A2 will be going for a nut hand, whereas the AA is in limbo – might be ahead, might be behind. So A2 can jam, whereas AA isn’t sure, meaning A2 has better bet-ability.

The second issue here is what happens when other hands come in.
Continuing with Ribbo’s example, let’s say 3 other typical hands play: KQJJ, A3JJ, and A287

If you look at the aggregate equity, AA loses more than the A2 hand on a weighted basis across all 3 potential 3rd party entrants. And on two of those hands, the A2 actually becomes the favorite.

As 7s Ad 9h 0.244
5c 4c Ah 2h 0.515
Ks Js Qc Jd 0.241

As 7s Ad 9h 0.332
5c 4c Ah 2h 0.363
Js Ac Jc 3c 0.305

As 7s Ad 9h 0.417
5c 4c Ah 2h 0.298
Ac 2c 8d 7d 0.284

This is because no matter how many hands come in, A2 will still hit its nut low, wheel or flush a certain amount of the time. Its win profile is moderately rarely to hit, but very strong when it hits. But AA profile is much more gradual. Holds up vs. a few opponents, but not vs. more as then needs a set. So AA is hurt much more by add’l opponents.

This effect only gets larger with more hands, because a good part of AA strength is in winning unimproved, and it will not make a set/boat often enough to overcome the add’l chances of straights/flushes being available with multiple opponents. For example, even here 5 handed, with several low-oriented hands AND a free A available for a set, AA doesn’t even have equal equity.

As 7s Ad 9h 0.182
5c 4c Ah 2h 0.353
5s 4s 3c 2c 0.071
Js Jc Kd Qd 0.282
2s 9d 3d Th 0.112

Net, bad AA hands suffer from 1) less clarity on where they stand, 2) less likely to be happy in scenarios where opponents like their hands, 3) less happy multiway

--Greg

[Ribbo]

However because you hold AA, the chance of someone holding A2 is considerably decreased. Remember that this is the worst possibly AA, the 79 are complete trash, and that it's up against the best possibly A2, with a 34 double suited.
In reality, these odds aren't so one skewed.

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]
You sir, are a terrible player. I hope nobody takes what he wrote seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a nice thing to say to someone who has been
playing limit o8 for 3 weeks. You should give some specifics
as to why you disagree with my answers. And you should
learn some manners!

Suerte,
Jonathan

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You sir, are a terrible player. I hope nobody takes what he wrote seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy, easy, he's probably talking about limit. (Although I'd personally never fold these hands in a limit game)

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP specified his questions as pertaining to limit.
Raising any of these hands preflop (as Ribbo suggests) directly contradicts the
recommendations Ray Zee puts forth in the first section of
his book.

Now, after just three weeks on this forum, I realize that
Ribbo is the greatest PLO8 AND limit O8 player around.
But for now I'll stick with Zee.

Suerte,
Jonathan

[FeliciaLee]

Sometimes the way people say things online rub others the wrong way. It is hard to convey a particular tone when things are written rather than spoken.

Being that I am very guilty myself of sounding pompous and condescending (and sometimes I don't even mean it, lol), I tend to cut posters a little more slack.

Having read through all of Ribbo's posts in the past weeks, I see some huge efforts he has made to try to help 2+2er's. If you don't like his tone, try to look beyond it, and get what you can from it. The same could be said of me or any other poster you think is being smarmy.

Believe it or not, they understand that we are beginners. Some very experienced players will hold our hands and coddle us through the weening process. Others will kick us in the balls. Everyone has a different approach.

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]
Some very experienced players will hold our hands and coddle us through the weening process. Others will kick us in the balls.



[/ QUOTE ]

A felicitous, albeit ironic, turn of phrase!

But I understand the sentiment and appreciate your response.

Suerte,
Jonathan

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You sir, are a terrible player. I hope nobody takes what he wrote seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a nice thing to say to someone who has been
playing limit o8 for 3 weeks. You should give some specifics
as to why you disagree with my answers. And you should
learn some manners!

Suerte,
Jonathan

[/ QUOTE ]

You just need to ask yourself if the price of dealing with cranky experienced players is worth the benefit of improving your play.

I’d say let him have his fun.