Two pair against all kinds of draws [Archive]

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mojobluesman

08-15-2005, 06:44 PM

Help please!

I wasn't sure what to do against the turn raise (KJ makes a STR8) and was even less sure what to do when the 4th club fell.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Disconnected

08-15-2005, 06:58 PM

I'd call the turn raise; even if you're behind, you've got outs to a boat. I'm less sure about the river. If he woke up on the river, I'd call a bet, since it's a scary river. Since he woke up on the turn, and the river puts 4 to a straight and to a flush on the board, I think I'd fold. But that might be pretty weak.

08-15-2005, 07:14 PM

It does look like KJ, probably with a club. I don't have a problem with your initial turn bet because he could have simply been on a flush draw, but once he raised the turn, I'm probably folding.

MrWookie47

08-15-2005, 07:27 PM

I think I Clarkmeister the river.

Bradyams

08-15-2005, 07:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I Clarkmeister the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying a call is correct here, but I'm not sure if Clarkmeister is better EV than a check/call. The reason for this is because, one of the big points of Clarkmeister, as you know, is that you give your opponent a chance to fold a better hand since they fear the flush. However, what do you think villain would fold here, that he raises on the turn like that for one bet on the river? I may be way off base here, but it's just a quick thought.

Me thinks a read would probably be helpful in this situation.

mojobluesman

08-15-2005, 07:48 PM

Actually I should have given the read in this case. It was based on only 40-50 hands, but the player seemed like a TAG with an emphasis on the aggressive. So much so that part of the reason I check/called was that if I bet and he raised I wouldn't be all that sure he wasn't putting a move on me. I wanted to get out of the hand for only 1 bet.

Hojglad

08-15-2005, 07:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call the turn raise; even if you're behind, you've got outs to a boat.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have exactly 4 outs for a boat. This draw will come in roughly 1 in 11.5 times. You are being offered 8.75:1 by the pot. Calling to boat up is not enough to continue. If you think that we are beat here, we should fold. If we think we are ahead, we should three bet.

08-15-2005, 08:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I Clarkmeister the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying a call is correct here, but I'm not sure if Clarkmeister is better EV than a check/call. The reason for this is because, one of the big points of Clarkmeister, as you know, is that you give your opponent a chance to fold a better hand since they fear the flush. However, what do you think villain would fold here, that he raises on the turn like that for one bet on the river? I may be way off base here, but it's just a quick thought.

Me thinks a read would probably be helpful in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like Clarkmeister here, since it gives the impression that you wake up on the river with a club, whereas there is a chance the villain raised the turn with the straight and no club. You might get him to fold if he has no club and you are almost definitely beat if you get reraised. Ultimately, a read would be very useful, as stated.

detruncate

08-15-2005, 09:16 PM

If you check this river it has to be with the intention of folding. Even if betting is -EV, it's almost certainly less -EV than check/calling.

Hojglad

08-15-2005, 09:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you check this river it has to be with the intention of folding. Even if betting is -EV, it's almost certainly less -EV than check/calling.

[/ QUOTE ]
If betting is -EV, we shouldn't do it. Period. The goal of every decision you make in poker is to maximize your expectation. In this case, a fold gets the job done.

Rev. Good Will

08-15-2005, 09:34 PM

from waking up on the river, villian is most likely playing this as one of two things:

1 - slowplayed flush
2 - KJ

if villian is a thinking player, i don't think clarking is a better EV play, because so many high clubs are already out, you would have to be representing J/images/graemlins/club.gif or T/images/graemlins/club.gif (so only hands AJ/AT specifically), which is a very narrow range to put on, so check/call, or even check/fold might suffice

But, if villian isn't a thinking type, i see no reason to fire a round, only needs to fold a more than 1 in 8.75 times, right?

VoraciousReader

08-15-2005, 09:35 PM

Absent a read, I call this down. I don't expect to be good on the river, but I think I get shown A9 or AT here often enough to be profitable.

Edit: Okay, read the rest of the thread. HU against an aggressive opponent, I'm definitely seeing a showdown with top two pair. If he's a thinker, though, I agree with the person who asked what we're representing if we bet out the river. We raised preflop, and he has (presumably) the same 50 hands on us that we have on him, so which high club are we holding? I know it's not popular, but I still like the river check/call line. (Standard disclaimer, yada yada.)

detruncate

08-15-2005, 10:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The goal of every decision you make in poker is to maximize your expectation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Good thing we have you around to remind us of little things like this. Keep up the good work.

istewart

08-15-2005, 10:06 PM

Hojglad

08-15-2005, 10:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The goal of every decision you make in poker is to maximize your expectation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Good thing we have you around to remind us of little things like this. Keep up the good work.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was agreeing with you and giving my reason why. It's not necessary to be an ass. The point I brought up is something that's often lost in the discussion of these hands.

fizzleboink

08-15-2005, 11:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd call the turn raise; even if you're behind, you've got outs to a boat.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have exactly 4 outs for a boat. This draw will come in roughly 1 in 11.5 times. You are being offered 8.75:1 by the pot. Calling to boat up is not enough to continue. If you think that we are beat here, we should fold. If we think we are ahead, we should three bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm no I disagree with this. I think a call down is in order. We don't know if we're ahead or behind. If we're behind we have outs, and if we're ahead we certainly shouldn't fold. 3-betting will make us lose more when behind and not gain much when ahead.

IF we were 100% sure we were behind, then yes, your reasoning suggests a fold. But there's the possibility that Villian just made 2 pair as well, which we beat.

mojobluesman

08-16-2005, 08:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you check this river it has to be with the intention of folding. Even if betting is -EV, it's almost certainly less -EV than check/calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

The player seemed like a TAG with an emphasis on the aggressive. So much so that part of the reason I check/called was that if I bet and he raised I wouldn't be all that sure he wasn't putting a move on me. I wanted to get out of the hand for only 1 bet.