6max Free card play?

[Somekid]

I found this hand interesting because I could have used a play that I haven't seen discussed much (maybe because it is bad). I think that I should have bet the flop since checking means the turn will definitely be bet. By betting the flop I can probably get a free look at the river. If anybody has any thoughts on this or the rest of the hand, please comment.

Also if you know of any threads discussing this play I'd love to see them.

PartyPoker - $1/$2 Hold'em - 6 players (Converter: PGC (http://client.pokergrader.com))

Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

PreFlop
<font color="blue">UTG folds</font>, <font color="red">UTG+1 RAISES</font>, <font color="blue">CO folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero RAISES</font>
<font color="green">SB Calls</font>, <font color="green">BB Calls</font>, <font color="green">UTG+1 Calls</font>

...failed LAG isolation attempt

(4 players) FLOP: A/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ( Pot Size: 6.00 BB )
<font color="green">SB checks</font>, <font color="green">BB checks</font>, <font color="green">UTG+1 checks</font>, <font color="green">Hero checks</font>

(4 players) TURN: 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif ( Pot Size: 6.00 BB )
<font color="green">SB checks</font>, <font color="green">BB checks</font>, <font color="red">UTG+1 BETS</font>, <font color="green">Hero Calls</font>
<font color="green">SB Calls</font>, <font color="blue">BB folds</font>

(3 players) RIVER: J/images/graemlins/spade.gif ( Pot Size: 9.00 BB )
<font color="green">SB checks</font>, <font color="green">UTG+1 checks</font>, <font color="green">Hero checks</font>

Final Pot:9.00 BB

[@bsolute_luck]

i think you have fold equity on this flop enough to bet and the chances of getting a free card on the turn is pretty high.

[MrWookie47]

If you think that by betting the flop, you can almost certainly get a free look at the river, that's the better play. However, if you bet the flop and get raised, or donked on the turn, life sucks. You're very likely behind at this point, so taking the free card on the flop isn't too bad. You have to fold the turn, though. The pot is too small for what is almost certainly a 4 out draw.

[MrWookie47]

He's got some, but in a 4 way pot, I don't think everyone is going away often enough.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
He's got some, but in a 4 way pot, I don't think everyone is going away often enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially when it's 12SB.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
He's got some, but in a 4 way pot, I don't think everyone is going away often enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i thought about that as my initial post was "i liked how you played this hand", but i still like following up my 3-bets with a bet /images/graemlins/grin.gif especially with position and the increased pot odds will allow me to continue on the turn for my 4 outer. crappy thinking? - i guess then my question would be should Hero have called the turn? he's getting 7:1 and needs 11:1 to call profitably, or are we counting on implied odds on the turn and river?

[MrWookie47]

[ QUOTE ]
especially with position and the increased pot odds will allow me to continue on the turn for my 4 outer. crappy thinking? - i guess then my question would be should Hero have called the turn? he's getting 7:1 and needs 11:1 to call profitably, or are we counting on implied odds on the turn and river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very crappy thinking. Betting here so you can call a bet (or bet yourself) on the turn is giving yourself much worse immediate odds, and much worse implied odds.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
i guess then my question would be should Hero have called the turn? he's getting 7:1 and needs 11:1 to call profitably, or are we counting on implied odds on the turn and river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a K or Q wins this some of the time as well as the gutshot. We may even have the best hand.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
Very crappy thinking

[/ QUOTE ] /images/graemlins/frown.gif AHHH DARNIT!

ps: i thought the OP said "6SBs"- oops /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

okay then what about the turn call getting 7:1 immediate odds? wouldn't we need both SB and BB to call to make this profitable?

[MrWookie47]

We need to get a little better than 10:1 to call it. If we know the maniac will bet again and call our raise, then we'd need to be able to count on either both SB and BB seeing the river, or one of them putting in at least one additional bet on the river. It's conceivable, but I think it's pretty thin. I think I fold.

[MrWookie47]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i guess then my question would be should Hero have called the turn? he's getting 7:1 and needs 11:1 to call profitably, or are we counting on implied odds on the turn and river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a K or Q wins this some of the time as well as the gutshot. We may even have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think K high is the best hand in a 4 way pot here approximately never. If we give ourselves 1 out (still somewhat generous, IMO) for K's and Q's, I guess we can take another card off on the turn.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
I think K high is the best hand in a 4 way pot here approximately never.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think given the turn and river action hero wins this 10-20% of the time unimproved.

[MrWookie47]

I guess it's conceivable that UTG+1 raised KT or QT, but then you have to ask what the other buffoons are calling with. It's pretty unlikely that they ALL have KT or QT. The much more likely explanaition is a weak A that's now scared of the J that may have missed a c/r. I'll perhaps concede 5-10%. 20% is waaaaay to generous.

[Somekid]

Yeah I don't think my hand is going to be good here unimproved. Maybe 5% of the time. My thinking in calling the turn was that the SB and BB would almost certainly call since they were both very loose passive.

I still think betting the flop was the way to go. Being c/r on the flop would be bad but I think it will hapen relatively infrequently. Especially since the c/r would likely be the MP player meaning that the blinds might come along for the ride.