RGP Thread on 22

[Homer]

I suppose this thread should go under Poker Theory, but since I like you guys and gals so much, here goes...

There is a thread on RGP right now entitled Poker Related - 22 on the button (http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3e841dc4.314485618%40news.mindspring.com &prev=/groups%3Fdq%3D%26num%3D25%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3 DUTF-8%26group%3Drec.gambling.poker%26start%3D25).

In this thread, Gary Carson states that if you have 22/33/44 on the button, it is "usually not worth a call" if there are 5 limpers to you. He states that you need 6-7 limpers, counting the blinds, to make a call worthwhile.

Comments?

-- Homer

[JTG51]

I have to admit I didn't read the thread. I tried to, but I just couldn't bring myself to link to that site. I was a little afraid of what I might read.

So, with that disclaimer, I'll go ahead and give my thoughts on the thread anyway. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Gary Carson is infinitely smarter than I am, but it sounds like he's a little too worried about losing with set over set. Five limpers means at least seven way action with the BB, most likely eight way. I think with seven or eight way action (probably with 4 or 5 way also) you'll make up more than enough bets to cover the times when you flop a set and lose.

Is the thread actually worth reading, or is it one interesting post followed by 29384832 vulgar, hate filled replies?

[Homer]

It is worth reading, I suppose. There aren't any flames contained within that particular thread, so it is safe to click on the link.

-- Homer

[JTG51]

I just read the thread.

As you pointed out, Carson says 5 limpers isn't enough to play 22 on the button. When someone pressed him, asking how many opponents you need to play 22, Carson said 6 or 7 including the blinds.

Isn't 5 limpers to you with the blinds yet to act exactly 6 or 7 opponents? Am I misreading something? It sounds like he's contradicting himself.

[Homer]

Yes, I found that a bit confusing as well, but ignored it because either way his advice surprises me. I will play any pair on the button after 2 limpers most of the time (95%), anticipating 4-5 way action, and always after 3 or more limpers.

-- Homer

[davidross]

Does this mean that limping UTG with it is probably not recommended either? He doesn’t play 2/4 at paradise does he?
/forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[Homer]

I don't know what limits he plays, to tell you the truth. It would be interesting if someone who has read his book could comment.

-- Homer

[AceHigh]

I think in Gary's Book (if I remember correctly), he claims that 22/33 are basically neutral EV hands, if played well. Don't remember him talking about 44.

His point was that you could pretty much just always throw away these hands and it wouldn't hurt you profits. If you couldn't play them well it would help.

Looking at my pokerstat numbers, I see 22/33 are slightly negative EV for me in late position in ~100 times played. Not enough data, but maybe he is right.

[elysium]

hi homer,
hey great thread. yea we were talking about 33 on button earlier. on the button, first in, i think you can steal the blinds, but not a thousand percent on that one. its just what options other than mucking do you have. first in i think its value greater than muck. the question is is its value greater than the energy you use up playing the dang thing.