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spaminator101
08-15-2005, 03:19 PM
first of all
I hear many people on this forum say that if you are a good person you will go to heaven. Well i hate to break it to you but thats not how it works. God is not just some kind of judge, hes much more than that. God created the world and for some reason which the human brain can not comprehend he allowed his creation to break his rules. Thus creating sin. But he also created a way out for some of his creation which he chose through predestination. He offered his holy son as a sacrifice to take on the sin of man making God's chosen or elect holy and perfect in his eyes.
You see no matter how much man tries he can never be good because of his sinful nature. This is why the theory of free will is wrong. I know that many christians can argue this point until the cows come home but thats fine with me because ive done my fair share of arguing on this point as well. Also for anyone who doesnt beleive in calvinism and predestination you should read R.C. Sprouls book, Chosen by God

BluffTHIS!
08-15-2005, 03:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Also for anyone who doesnt beleive in calvinism and predestination you should read R.C. Sprouls book, Chosen by God

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe in predesitnation but not in the calvinist sense. And as far as calvinism goes, I'll just stick with the first christian church that is still here almost 2000 years later, the Roman Catholic Church, and was there 1500 years before John Calvin came along and put himself on the pedastal with the apostles. The calvinistic TULIP doctrines spring from a wrong reading of scripture. And before you start with the "Catholic Church only started as an institution around 350 A.D. and my church reflects true primitive christianity" stuff, then go read the early church fathers and martyrs who were the 2nd and 3rd generation christians and disciples of the apostles. See if your church's doctrines and worship practice reflect those writings. (clue: they don't)

spaminator101
08-15-2005, 03:42 PM
i know that john calvin didnt come up with the ideas behind calvinism as it was God who instated them
the apostle paul is really the first one who really talked much about predestination and election
Also i dont have anything against roman catholics , while i do disagree with their doctrine in some areas they are more correct than many protestant churches by the way im reformed presbyterian /images/graemlins/cool.gif

08-15-2005, 04:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Also for anyone who doesnt beleive in calvinism and predestination you should read R.C. Sprouls book, Chosen by God

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem very sure of yourself, why don't you give us a quick summary?

spaminator101
08-15-2005, 05:06 PM
well it is a book that teaches the finer points of calvinism
i got it from a library so i cant quote anything at the moment however it reassured my beleif in predestination

BluffTHIS!
08-15-2005, 05:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i know that john calvin didnt come up with the ideas behind calvinism as it was God who instated them

[/ QUOTE ]

It's more correct to say that Calvin misinterpreted theological ideas that God gives in the bible. Since you probably don't believe in the extreme ways in which calvin intrepreted predestination and election, why try to modify faulty ideas?

squeek12
08-15-2005, 06:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
well it is a book that teaches the finer points of calvinism
i got it from a library so i cant quote anything at the moment however it reassured my beleif in predestination

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing that predestination means that it has been determined by God at the beginning of time whether or not I will go to heaven or hell. Is this right?

And if it is, what the hell is the point of life? If my description of predestination is correct, then I couldn't disagree with it more. If a God exists, I can't believe that he would have set things up this way.

spaminator101
08-15-2005, 07:00 PM
this pretty much somes up calvinism
T.U.L.I.P. (Calvinism)
Introduction:
Today Calvinism is taught throughout the world in parts, but it is difficult to find one that teaches all five of the points we will see today. The Presbyterian Church was founded largely because of John Calvin, however Calvin did not start the religion or any religion. He was responsible for the teaching we will study and this teaching began in the 1500’s. Calvin taught what is identified as the T.U.I.I.P. Doctrine, which will be identified as we go through this lesson. Let’s see if the Bible teaches this doctrine or if it is a doctrine of man that needs to be avoided (Galatians 1:10-12).
I. Total Hereditary Depravity: that the babies inherit the sin of Adam and are depraved of responding to the Gospel of Christ.

A. Some world religions that teach this doctrine today:
1. Presbyterians – “Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of the soul and body. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions."
2. Roman Catholics – “Council of Trent 1545-1563: "Adam's first sin has been transmitted to all his descendants". Questions of Catholics Answered by W. Hebst: "Yes, every child born into this world has the guilt of original sin upon his soul. Original sin is the sin that we inherit from our first parents. Original sin excludes us from heaven unless forgiven. It is forgiven only by baptism, hence when an unbaptized baby dies, it can not enter the kingdom of God."
3. Lutherans - Augsburg confession Article 2: "It is also taught among us that since the fall of Adam all men who are born according to the course of nature are conceived and born in sin. That is, all men are full of evil lust and inclination from their mother's womb and are unable by nature to have true fear of God and true faith in God. Moreover, this inborn sickness and hereditary sin is truly sin and condemns to the eternal wrath of God all whose who are not born again through baptism and the Holy Spirit."
4. Methodist – “Methodist Discipline: (Since) "infants are guilty of original sin, then they are proper subjects of baptism, seeing in the ordinary way, they cannot be saved unless this be washed away by baptism. It has already been proved that this original sin cleaves to every child of man, and hereby they are children of wrath and liable to eternal damnation."
B. What we should have noticed in the quotes we looked at is that they have creeds. Is this right? (I Peter 4:11) “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
C. What the Bible teaches about “inherited sin”
1. Sin is breaking God’s Law I John 3:4
2. Sin is not passed on Ezekiel 18:20
3. You are pure until you sin Ezekiel 28:15
4. Man causes himself to be a sinner Ecclesiastes 7:29 “Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.”
5. Sin has do be done by someone realizing right and wrong James 4:17 “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
6. Can a baby sin? God says that we are to become as these little children not little sinners Matthew 18:3.
D. Out of this doctrine comes infant baptism.
1. Out of nine conversion examples in the book of Acts not one time was a baby converted (Acts 2:36-41, Acts 8:5-13, Acts 8:26-39, Acts 9:1-20, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 16:13-15, Acts 16:23-34, Acts 18:8, and Acts 19:1-7).
a. Can a baby believe in God? You cannot separate belief from baptism (Mark 16:15-16).
II. Unconditional Election: that God has a list of those that will be saved and there is nothing that can be done to change it.
A. The Jehovah’s Witnesses hold that 144,000 are predestined.
1. The Presbyterian Church teaches - "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass ... By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or diminished." (The Confession of Faith of the Presbyterian Church, U.S.A., from chapter 111, entitled "Of God's Eternal Decree")
B. The Bible teaches:
1. God is no respecter of persons Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11, and I Peter 1:17
2. If Christians are predestined why worry about the Devil I Peter 5:8?
a. If Christians could not do anything to change their condition and election then Romans 3:23 and 6:23 do not apply.
***SEE ALSO POINTs THREE and FIVE****
III. Limited Atonement: Christ only died for those on the “saved list”.
A. The Presbyterian Church – “Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only end actually secured salvation for them ... In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith, which united them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.” (David N. Steele, Curtis C. Thomas; The Five Points of Calvinism, Defined, Defended, Documented: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1975, p. 1 7)”
B. The Bible teaches:
1. Christ died for the ungodly Romans 5:6
2. God did not elect he wants all men to be saved I Timothy 2:3-4 and II Peter 3:9.
a. Unfortunately the majority will reject Matthew 7:13-14.
3. Christ said ANY MAN – John 6:51
4. It was the whole world Christ died for John 3:16, II Corinthians 5:19, and I John 2:1-2.
a. It is the whole world the saving Gospel is to be taken to Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:15-16.
5. Christ did not come to save the saved he came for the lost Luke 19:10.

IV. Irresistible Grace: God sends the Holy Spirit, only to those on the saved list, which removes their depraved nature inherited from Adam and creates within them a saving faith in Christ. The Holy Spirit thereafter guides them directly to understand and correctly interpret the Bible.

A. “Although the general outward call of the dispel can be, and often is, rejected, the special inward call of the Spirit never fails to result in the conversion of those to whom it is made. This special call is not made to all sinners but is issued to the elect only’ The Spirit is in no way dependent upon their help or cooperation for success in His work of bringing them to Christ. It is for this reason that Calvinists speak of the Spirit’s call and of God’s grace in saving sinners as being ‘efficacious,’ ‘invincible,’ or ‘irresistible.’ For the grace which the Holy Spirit extends to the elect cannot be thwarted or refused, it never fails to bring them to true faith in Christ.” (David N. Steele, Curtis C. Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism, Defined, Defended, Documented: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1975, p.49)”
B. The Bible teaches:
1. The Spirit can be resisted Acts 7:51
2. It is the word and preaching that pricks the heart and leads men to know what God desires Acts 2:36-41
a. See also: Romans 10:14-17
V. Perseverance of the Saints: Once a child of God is saved they cannot fall away.
A. Two Baptist preachers teaching this doctrine (two of many):
1. Sam Morris, Baptist preacher in Stamford, TX wrote an article entitled, "Do A Christian's sins damn his souls"? Here is a quote from the article: "We take the position that a Christian's sins do not damn his soul. The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude toward other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his souls...And all the sins he may commit from murder to idolatry will not make his soul in any more danger.
2. Billy Graham – Baptist preacher “When you receive Christ into your heart you become a child of God, and have the privilege of talking to Him in prayer at any time about anything. The Christian life is a personal relationship to God through Jesus Christ. And best of all, it is a relationship that will last for all eternity. You cannot end this relationship. Once you have accepted Christ you are his forevermore.” -www.billygraham.org
B. The Bible teaches:
1. We can fall from Grace:
a. Hebrews 10:38-39
b. Romans 6:1-2
c. Galatians 5:4
d. Galatians 6:7-8
e. I Corinthians 9:27
f. I Corinthians 10:12
g. II Peter 2:20-22
h. Revelation 2:1-7
i. Revelation 2:12-17
j. Revelation 2:18-28
l. Revelation 3:1-6
m. Revelation 3:14-21
Conclusion:
The Bible clearly refutes all of these false doctrines. If you have believed these things come out from those errors and obey the truth (John 8:32).

spaminator101
08-15-2005, 07:01 PM
this pretty much sums it up
T.U.L.I.P. (Calvinism)
Introduction:
Today Calvinism is taught throughout the world in parts, but it is difficult to find one that teaches all five of the points we will see today. The Presbyterian Church was founded largely because of John Calvin, however Calvin did not start the religion or any religion. He was responsible for the teaching we will study and this teaching began in the 1500’s. Calvin taught what is identified as the T.U.I.I.P. Doctrine, which will be identified as we go through this lesson. Let’s see if the Bible teaches this doctrine or if it is a doctrine of man that needs to be avoided (Galatians 1:10-12).
I. Total Hereditary Depravity: that the babies inherit the sin of Adam and are depraved of responding to the Gospel of Christ.

A. Some world religions that teach this doctrine today:
1. Presbyterians – “Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of the soul and body. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions."
2. Roman Catholics – “Council of Trent 1545-1563: "Adam's first sin has been transmitted to all his descendants". Questions of Catholics Answered by W. Hebst: "Yes, every child born into this world has the guilt of original sin upon his soul. Original sin is the sin that we inherit from our first parents. Original sin excludes us from heaven unless forgiven. It is forgiven only by baptism, hence when an unbaptized baby dies, it can not enter the kingdom of God."
3. Lutherans - Augsburg confession Article 2: "It is also taught among us that since the fall of Adam all men who are born according to the course of nature are conceived and born in sin. That is, all men are full of evil lust and inclination from their mother's womb and are unable by nature to have true fear of God and true faith in God. Moreover, this inborn sickness and hereditary sin is truly sin and condemns to the eternal wrath of God all whose who are not born again through baptism and the Holy Spirit."
4. Methodist – “Methodist Discipline: (Since) "infants are guilty of original sin, then they are proper subjects of baptism, seeing in the ordinary way, they cannot be saved unless this be washed away by baptism. It has already been proved that this original sin cleaves to every child of man, and hereby they are children of wrath and liable to eternal damnation."
B. What we should have noticed in the quotes we looked at is that they have creeds. Is this right? (I Peter 4:11) “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
C. What the Bible teaches about “inherited sin”
1. Sin is breaking God’s Law I John 3:4
2. Sin is not passed on Ezekiel 18:20
3. You are pure until you sin Ezekiel 28:15
4. Man causes himself to be a sinner Ecclesiastes 7:29 “Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.”
5. Sin has do be done by someone realizing right and wrong James 4:17 “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
6. Can a baby sin? God says that we are to become as these little children not little sinners Matthew 18:3.
D. Out of this doctrine comes infant baptism.
1. Out of nine conversion examples in the book of Acts not one time was a baby converted (Acts 2:36-41, Acts 8:5-13, Acts 8:26-39, Acts 9:1-20, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 16:13-15, Acts 16:23-34, Acts 18:8, and Acts 19:1-7).
a. Can a baby believe in God? You cannot separate belief from baptism (Mark 16:15-16).
II. Unconditional Election: that God has a list of those that will be saved and there is nothing that can be done to change it.
A. The Jehovah’s Witnesses hold that 144,000 are predestined.
1. The Presbyterian Church teaches - "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass ... By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or diminished." (The Confession of Faith of the Presbyterian Church, U.S.A., from chapter 111, entitled "Of God's Eternal Decree")
B. The Bible teaches:
1. God is no respecter of persons Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11, and I Peter 1:17
2. If Christians are predestined why worry about the Devil I Peter 5:8?
a. If Christians could not do anything to change their condition and election then Romans 3:23 and 6:23 do not apply.
***SEE ALSO POINTs THREE and FIVE****
III. Limited Atonement: Christ only died for those on the “saved list”.
A. The Presbyterian Church – “Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only end actually secured salvation for them ... In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith, which united them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.” (David N. Steele, Curtis C. Thomas; The Five Points of Calvinism, Defined, Defended, Documented: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1975, p. 1 7)”
B. The Bible teaches:
1. Christ died for the ungodly Romans 5:6
2. God did not elect he wants all men to be saved I Timothy 2:3-4 and II Peter 3:9.
a. Unfortunately the majority will reject Matthew 7:13-14.
3. Christ said ANY MAN – John 6:51
4. It was the whole world Christ died for John 3:16, II Corinthians 5:19, and I John 2:1-2.
a. It is the whole world the saving Gospel is to be taken to Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:15-16.
5. Christ did not come to save the saved he came for the lost Luke 19:10.

IV. Irresistible Grace: God sends the Holy Spirit, only to those on the saved list, which removes their depraved nature inherited from Adam and creates within them a saving faith in Christ. The Holy Spirit thereafter guides them directly to understand and correctly interpret the Bible.

A. “Although the general outward call of the dispel can be, and often is, rejected, the special inward call of the Spirit never fails to result in the conversion of those to whom it is made. This special call is not made to all sinners but is issued to the elect only’ The Spirit is in no way dependent upon their help or cooperation for success in His work of bringing them to Christ. It is for this reason that Calvinists speak of the Spirit’s call and of God’s grace in saving sinners as being ‘efficacious,’ ‘invincible,’ or ‘irresistible.’ For the grace which the Holy Spirit extends to the elect cannot be thwarted or refused, it never fails to bring them to true faith in Christ.” (David N. Steele, Curtis C. Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism, Defined, Defended, Documented: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1975, p.49)”
B. The Bible teaches:
1. The Spirit can be resisted Acts 7:51
2. It is the word and preaching that pricks the heart and leads men to know what God desires Acts 2:36-41
a. See also: Romans 10:14-17
V. Perseverance of the Saints: Once a child of God is saved they cannot fall away.
A. Two Baptist preachers teaching this doctrine (two of many):
1. Sam Morris, Baptist preacher in Stamford, TX wrote an article entitled, "Do A Christian's sins damn his souls"? Here is a quote from the article: "We take the position that a Christian's sins do not damn his soul. The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude toward other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his souls...And all the sins he may commit from murder to idolatry will not make his soul in any more danger.
2. Billy Graham – Baptist preacher “When you receive Christ into your heart you become a child of God, and have the privilege of talking to Him in prayer at any time about anything. The Christian life is a personal relationship to God through Jesus Christ. And best of all, it is a relationship that will last for all eternity. You cannot end this relationship. Once you have accepted Christ you are his forevermore.” -www.billygraham.org
B. The Bible teaches:
1. We can fall from Grace:
a. Hebrews 10:38-39
b. Romans 6:1-2
c. Galatians 5:4
d. Galatians 6:7-8
e. I Corinthians 9:27
f. I Corinthians 10:12
g. II Peter 2:20-22
h. Revelation 2:1-7
i. Revelation 2:12-17
j. Revelation 2:18-28
l. Revelation 3:1-6
m. Revelation 3:14-21
Conclusion:
The Bible clearly refutes all of these false doctrines. If you have believed these things come out from those errors and obey the truth (John 8:32).




And heres some more

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon
T IS A GREAT THING to begin the Christian life by believing good solid doctrine. Some people have received twenty different "gospels" in as many years; how many more they will accept before they get to their journey's end, it would be difficult to predict. I thank God that He early taught me the gospel, and I have been so perfectly satisfied with it, that I do not want to know any other. Constant change of creed is sure loss. If a tree has to be taken up two or three times a year, you will not need to build a very large loft in which to store the apples. When people are always shifting their doctrinal principles, they are not likely to bring forth much fruit to the glory of God. It is good for young believers to begin with a firm hold upon those great fundamental doctrines which the Lord has taught in His Word. Why, if I believed what some preach about the temporary, trumpery salvation which only lasts for a time, I would scarcely be at all grateful for it; but when I know that those whom God saves He saves with an everlasting salvation, when I know that He gives to them an everlasting righteousness, when I know that He settles them on an everlasting foundation of everlasting love, and that He will bring them to His everlasting kingdom, oh, then I do wonder, and I am astonished that such a blessing as this should ever have been given to me!


"Pause, my soul! adore, and wonder!
Ask, 'Oh, why such love to me?'
Grace hath put me in the number
Of the Saviour's family:
Hallelujah!
Thanks, eternal thanks, to Thee!"

I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace. Sometimes, when I see some of the worst characters in the street, I feel as if my heart must burst forth in tears of gratitude that God has never let me act as they have done! I have thought, if God had left me alone, and had not touched me by His grace, what a great sinner I should have been! I should have run to the utmost lengths of sin, dived into the very depths of evil, nor should I have stopped at any vice or folly, if God had not restrained me. I feel that I should have been a very king of sinners, if God had let me alone. I cannot understand the reason why I am saved, except upon the ground that God would have it so. I cannot, if I look ever so earnestly, discover any kind of reason in myself why I should be a partaker of Divine grace. If I am not at this moment without Christ, it is only because Christ Jesus would have His will with me, and that will was that I should be with Him where He is, and should share His glory. I can put the crown nowhere but upon the head of Him whose mighty grace has saved me from going down into the pit. Looking back on my past life, I can see that the dawning of it all was of God; of God effectively. I took no torch with which to light the sun, but the sun enlightened me. I did not commence my spiritual life—no, I rather kicked, and struggled against the things of the Spirit: when He drew me, for a time I did not run after Him: there was a natural hatred in my soul of everything holy and good. Wooings were lost upon me—warnings were cast to the wind—thunders were despised; and as for the whispers of His love, they were rejected as being less than nothing and vanity. But, sure I am, I can say now, speaking on behalf of myself, "He only is my salvation." It was He who turned my heart, and brought me down on my knees before Him. I can in very deed, say with Doddridge and Toplady—

"Grace taught my soul to pray,
And made my eyes o'erflow;"

and coming to this moment, I can add—

"'Tis grace has kept me to this day,
And will not let me go."

Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul—when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man—that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."
I once attended a service where the text happened to be, "He shall choose our inheritance for us;" and the good man who occupied the pulpit was more than a little of an Arminian. Therefore, when he commenced, he said, "This passage refers entirely to our temporal inheritance, it has nothing whatever to do with our everlasting destiny, for," said he, "we do not want Christ to choose for us in the matter of Heaven or hell. It is so plain and easy, that every man who has a grain of common sense will choose Heaven, and any person would know better than to choose hell. We have no need of any superior intelligence, or any greater Being, to choose Heaven or hell for us. It is left to our own free-will, and we have enough wisdom given us, sufficiently correct means to judge for ourselves," and therefore, as he very logically inferred, there was no necessity for Jesus Christ, or anyone, to make a choice for us. We could choose the inheritance for ourselves without any assistance. "Ah!" I thought, "but, my good brother, it may be very true that we could, but I think we should want something more than common sense before we should choose aright."
First, let me ask, must we not all of us admit an over-ruling Providence, and the appointment of Jehovah's hand, as to the means whereby we came into this world? Those men who think that, afterwards, we are left to our own free-will to choose this one or the other to direct our steps, must admit that our entrance into the world was not of our own will, but that God had then to choose for us. What circumstances were those in our power which led us to elect certain persons to be our parents? Had we anything to do with it? Did not God Himself appoint our parents, native place, and friends? Could He not have caused me to be born with the skin of the Hottentot, brought forth by a filthy mother who would nurse me in her "kraal," and teach me to bow down to Pagan gods, quite as easily as to have given me a pious mother, who would each morning and night bend her knee in prayer on my behalf? Or, might He not, if He had pleased, have given me some profligate to have been my parent, from whose lips I might have early heard fearful, filthy, and obscene language? Might He not have placed me where I should have had a drunken father, who would have immured me in a very dungeon of ignorance, and brought me up in the chains of crime? Was it not God's Providence that I had so happy a lot, that both my parents were His children, and endeavoured to train me up in the fear of the Lord?
John Newton used to tell a whimsical story, and laugh at it, too, of a good woman who said, in order to prove the doctrine of election, "Ah! sir, the Lord must have loved me before I was born, or else He would not have seen anything in me to love afterwards." I am sure it is true in my case; I believe the doctrine of election, because I am quite certain that, if God had not chosen me, I should never have chosen Him; and I am sure He chose me before I was born, or else He never would have chosen me afterwards; and He must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find any reason in myself why He should have looked upon me with special love. So I am forced to accept that great Biblical doctrine. I recollect an Arminian brother telling me that he had read the Scriptures through a score or more times, and could never find the doctrine of election in them. He added that he was sure he would have done so if it had been there, for he read the Word on his knees. I said to him, "I think you read the Bible in a very uncomfortable posture, and if you had read it in your easy chair, you would have been more likely to understand it. Pray, by all means, and the more, the better, but it is a piece of superstition to think there is anything in the posture in which a man puts himself for reading: and as to reading through the Bible twenty times without having found anything about the doctrine of election, the wonder is that you found anything at all: you must have galloped through it at such a rate that you were not likely to have any intelligible idea of the meaning of the Scriptures."
If it would be marvelous to see one river leap up from the earth full-grown, what would it be to gaze upon a vast spring from which all the rivers of the earth should at once come bubbling up, a million of them born at a birth? What a vision would it be! Who can conceive it. And yet the love of God is that fountain, from which all the rivers of mercy, which have ever gladdened our race—all the rivers of grace in time, and of glory hereafter—take their rise. My soul, stand thou at that sacred fountain-head, and adore and magnify, for ever and ever, God, even our Father, who hath loved us! In the very beginning, when this great universe lay in the mind of God, like unborn forests in the acorn cup; long ere the echoes awoke the solitudes; before the mountains were brought forth; and long ere the light flashed through the sky, God loved His chosen creatures. Before there was any created being—when the ether was not fanned by an angel's wing, when space itself had not an existence, when there was nothing save God alone—even then, in that loneliness of Deity, and in that deep quiet and profundity, His bowels moved with love for His chosen. Their names were written on His heart, and then were they dear to His soul. Jesus loved His people before the foundation of the world—even from eternity! and when He called me by His grace, He said to me, "I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."
Then, in the fulness of time, He purchased me with His blood; He let His heart run out in one deep gaping wound for me long ere I loved Him. Yea, when He first came to me, did I not spurn Him? When He knocked at the door, and asked for entrance, did I not drive Him away, and do despite to His grace? Ah, I can remember that I full often did so until, at last, by the power of His effectual grace, He said, "I must, I will come in;" and then He turned my heart, and made me love Him. But even till now I should have resisted Him, had it not been for His grace. Well, then since He purchased me when I was dead in sins, does it not follow, as a consequence necessary and logical, that He must have loved me first? Did my Saviour die for me because I believed on Him? No; I was not then in existence; I had then no being. Could the Saviour, therefore, have died because I had faith, when I myself was not yet born? Could that have been possible? Could that have been the origin of the Saviour's love towards me? Oh! no; my Saviour died for me long before I believed. "But," says someone, "He foresaw that you would have faith; and, therefore, He loved you." What did He foresee about my faith? Did He foresee that I should get that faith myself, and that I should believe on Him of myself? No; Christ could not foresee that, because no Christian man will ever say that faith came of itself without the gift and without the working of the Holy Spirit. I have met with a great many believers, and talked with them about this matter; but I never knew one who could put his hand on his heart, and say, "I believed in Jesus without the assistance of the Holy Spirit."
I am bound to the doctrine of the depravity of the human heart, because I find myself depraved in heart, and have daily proofs that in my flesh there dwelleth no good thing. If God enters into covenant with unfallen man, man is so insignificant a creature that it must be an act of gracious condescension on the Lord's part; but if God enters into covenant with sinful man, he is then so offensive a creature that it must be, on God's part, an act of pure, free, rich, sovereign grace. When the Lord entered into covenant with me, I am sure that it was all of grace, nothing else but grace. When I remember what a den of unclean beasts and birds my heart was, and how strong was my unrenewed will, how obstinate and rebellious against the sovereignty of the Divine rule, I always feel inclined to take the very lowest room in my Father's house, and when I enter Heaven, it will be to go among the less than the least of all saints, and with the chief of sinners.
The late lamented Mr. Denham has put, at the foot of his portrait, a most admirable text, "Salvation is of the Lord." That is just an epitome of Calvinism; it is the sum and substance of it. If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, "He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord." I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible. "He only is my rock and my salvation." Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy; tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, "God is my rock and my salvation." What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor.

"If ever it should come to pass,
That sheep of Christ might fall away,
My fickle, feeble soul, alas!
Would fall a thousand times a day."

If one dear saint of God had perished, so might all; if one of the covenant ones be lost, so may all be; and then there is no gospel promise true, but the Bible is a lie, and there is nothing in it worth my acceptance. I will be an infidel at once when I can believe that a saint of God can ever fall finally. If God hath loved me once, then He will love me for ever. God has a master-mind; He arranged everything in His gigantic intellect long before He did it; and once having settled it, He never alters it, "This shall be done," saith He, and the iron hand of destiny marks it down, and it is brought to pass. "This is My purpose," and it stands, nor can earth or hell alter it. "This is My decree," saith He, "promulgate it, ye holy angels; rend it down from the gate of Heaven, ye devils, if ye can; but ye cannot alter the decree, it shall stand for ever." God altereth not His plans; why should He? He is Almighty, and therefore can perform His pleasure. Why should He? He is the All-wise, and therefore cannot have planned wrongly. Why should He? He is the everlasting God, and therefore cannot die before His plan is accomplished. Why should He change? Ye worthless atoms of earth, ephemera of a day, ye creeping insects upon this bay-leaf of existence, ye may change your plans, but He shall never, never change His. Has He told me that His plan is to save me? If so, I am for ever safe.

"My name from the palms of His hands
Eternity will not erase;
Impress'd on His heart it remains,
In marks of indelible grace."

I do not know how some people, who believe that a Christian can fall from grace, manage to be happy. It must be a very commendable thing in them to be able to get through a day without despair. If I did not believe the doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints, I think I should be of all men the most miserable, because I should lack any ground of comfort. I could not say, whatever state of heart I came into, that I should be like a well-spring of water, whose stream fails not; I should rather have to take the comparison of an intermittent spring, that might stop on a sudden, or a reservoir, which I had no reason to expect would always be full. I believe that the happiest of Christians and the truest of Christians are those who never dare to doubt God, but who take His Word simply as it stands, and believe it, and ask no questions, just feeling assured that if God has said it, it will be so. I bear my willing testimony that I have no reason, nor even the shadow of a reason, to doubt my Lord, and I challenge Heaven, and earth, and hell, to bring any proof that God is untrue. From the depths of hell I call the fiends, and from this earth I call the tried and afflicted believers, and to Heaven I appeal, and challenge the long experience of the blood-washed host, and there is not to be found in the three realms a single person who can bear witness to one fact which can disprove the faithfulness of God, or weaken His claim to be trusted by His servants. There are many things that may or may not happen, but this I know shall happen—

"He shall present my soul,
Unblemish'd and complete,
Before the glory of His face,
With joys divinely great."

All the purposes of man have been defeated, but not the purposes of God. The promises of man may be broken—many of them are made to be broken—but the promises of God shall all be fulfilled. He is a promise-maker, but He never was a promise-breaker; He is a promise-keeping God, and every one of His people shall prove it to be so. This is my grateful, personal confidence, "The Lord will perfect that which concerneth me"—unworthy me, lost and ruined me. He will yet save me; and—

"I, among the blood-wash'd throng,
Shall wave the palm, and wear the crown,
And shout loud victory."

I go to a land which the plough of earth hath never upturned, where it is greener than earth's best pastures, and richer than her most abundant harvests ever saw. I go to a building of more gorgeous architecture than man hath ever builded; it is not of mortal design; it is "a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the Heavens." All I shall know and enjoy in Heaven, will be given to me by the Lord, and I shall say, when at last I appear before Him—

"Grace all the work shall crown
Through everlasting days;
It lays in Heaven the topmost stone,
And well deserves the praise."

I know there are some who think it necessary to their system of theology to limit the merit of the blood of Jesus: if my theological system needed such a limitation, I would cast it to the winds. I cannot, I dare not allow the thought to find a lodging in my mind, it seems so near akin to blasphemy. In Christ's finished work I see an ocean of merit; my plummet finds no bottom, my eye discovers no shore. There must be sufficient efficacy in the blood of Christ, if God had so willed it, to have saved not only all in this world, but all in ten thousand worlds, had they transgressed their Maker's law. Once admit infinity into the matter, and limit is out of the question. Having a Divine Person for an offering, it is not consistent to conceive of limited value; bound and measure are terms inapplicable to the Divine sacrifice. The intent of the Divine purpose fixes the application of the infinite offering, but does not change it into a finite work. Think of the numbers upon whom God has bestowed His grace already. Think of the countless hosts in Heaven: if thou wert introduced there to-day, thou wouldst find it as easy to tell the stars, or the sands of the sea, as to count the multitudes that are before the throne even now. They have come from the East, and from the West, from the North, and from the South, and they are sitting down with Abraham, and with Isaac, and with Jacob in the Kingdom of God; and beside those in Heaven, think of the saved ones on earth. Blessed be God, His elect on earth are to be counted by millions, I believe, and the days are coming, brighter days than these, when there shall be multitudes upon multitudes brought to know the Saviour, and to rejoice in Him. The Father's love is not for a few only, but for an exceeding great company. "A great multitude, which no man could number," will be found in Heaven. A man can reckon up to very high figures; set to work your Newtons, your mightiest calculators, and they can count great numbers, but God and God alone can tell the multitude of His redeemed. I believe there will be more in Heaven than in hell. If anyone asks me why I think so, I answer, because Christ, in everything, is to "have the pre-eminence," and I cannot conceive how He could have the pre-eminence if there are to be more in the dominions of Satan than in Paradise. Moreover, I have never read that there is to be in hell a great multitude, which no man could number. I rejoice to know that the souls of all infants, as soon as they die, speed their way to Paradise. Think what a multitude there is of them! Then there are already in Heaven unnumbered myriads of the spirits of just men made perfect—the redeemed of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues up till now; and there are better times coming, when the religion of Christ shall be universal; when—

"He shall reign from pole to pole,
With illimitable sway;"

when whole kingdoms shall bow down before Him, and nations shall be born in a day, and in the thousand years of the great millennial state there will be enough saved to make up all the deficiencies of the thousands of years that have gone before. Christ shall be Master everywhere, and His praise shall be sounded in every land. Christ shall have the pre-eminence at last; His train shall be far larger than that which shall attend the chariot of the grim monarch of hell.
Some persons love the doctrine of universal atonement because they say, "It is so beautiful. It is a lovely idea that Christ should have died for all men; it commends itself," they say, "to the instincts of humanity; there is something in it full of joy and beauty." I admit there is, but beauty may be often associated with falsehood. There is much which I might admire in the theory of universal redemption, but I will just show what the supposition necessarily involves. If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were lost before He died. If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins. Once again, if it was Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed, for we have His own testimony that there is a lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast some of the very persons who, according to the theory of universal redemption, were bought with His blood. That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Saviour died for men who were or are in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. To imagine for a moment that He was the Substitute for all the sons of men, and that God, having first punished the Substitute, afterwards punished the sinners themselves, seems to conflict with all my ideas of Divine justice. That Christ should offer an atonement and satisfaction for the sins of all men, and that afterwards some of those very men should be punished for the sins for which Christ had already atoned, appears to me to be the most monstrous iniquity that could ever have been imputed to Saturn, to Janus, to the goddess of the Thugs, or to the most diabolical heathen deities. God forbid that we should ever think thus of Jehovah, the just and wise and good!
There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer—I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it. But far be it from me even to imagine that Zion contains none but Calvinistic Christians within her walls, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views. Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitefield and John Wesley. The character of John Wesley stands beyond all imputation for self-sacrifice, zeal, holiness, and communion with God; he lived far above the ordinary level of common Christians, and was one "of whom the world was not worthy." I believe there are multitudes of men who cannot see these truths, or, at least, cannot see them in the way in which we put them, who nevertheless have received Christ as their Saviour, and are as dear to the heart of the God of grace as the soundest Calvinist in or out of Heaven.
I do not think I differ from any of my Hyper-Calvinistic brethren in what I do believe, but I differ from them in what they do not believe. I do not hold any less than they do, but I hold a little more, and, I think, a little more of the truth revealed in the Scriptures. Not only are there a few cardinal doctrines, by which we can steer our ship North, South, East, or West, but as we study the Word, we shall begin to learn something about the North-west and North-east, and all else that lies between the four cardinal points. The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.
It is often said that the doctrines we believe have a tendency to lead us to sin. I have heard it asserted most positively, that those high doctrines which we love, and which we find in the Scriptures, are licentious ones. I do not know who will have the hardihood to make that assertion, when they consider that the holiest of men have been believers in them. I ask the man who dares to say that Calvinism is a licentious religion, what he thinks of the character of Augustine, or Calvin, or Whitefield, who in successive ages were the great exponents of the system of grace; or what will he say of the Puritans, whose works are full of them? Had a man been an Arminian in those days, he would have been accounted the vilest heretic breathing, but now we are looked upon as the heretics, and they as the orthodox. We have gone back to the old school; we can trace our descent from the apostles. It is that vein of free-grace, running through the sermonizing of Baptists, which has saved us as a denomination. Were it not for that, we should not stand where we are today. We can run a golden line up to Jesus Christ Himself, through a holy succession of mighty fathers, who all held these glorious truths; and we can ask concerning them, "Where will you find holier and better men in the world?" No doctrine is so calculated to preserve a man from sin as the doctrine of the grace of God. Those who have called it "a licentious doctrine" did not know anything at all about it. Poor ignorant things, they little knew that their own vile stuff was the most licentious doctrine under Heaven. If they knew the grace of God in truth, they would soon see that there was no preservative from lying like a knowledge that we are elect of God from the foundation of the world. There is nothing like a belief in my eternal perseverance, and the immutability of my Father's affection, which can keep me near to Him from a motive of simple gratitude. Nothing makes a man so virtuous as belief of the truth. A lying doctrine will soon beget a lying practice. A man cannot have an erroneous belief without by-and-by having an erroneous life. I believe the one thing naturally begets the other. Of all men, those have the most disinterested piety, the sublimest reverence, the most ardent devotion, who believe that they are saved by grace, without works, through faith, and that not of themselves, it is the gift of God. Christians should take heed, and see that it always is so, lest by any means Christ should be crucified afresh, and put to an open shame.

08-15-2005, 07:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It's more correct to say that Calvin misinterpreted theological ideas that God gives in the bible.

[/ QUOTE ]Isn't the Bible authored by a variety of individuals (and translated by more) who were themselves interpreting theological ideas? How can anyone be sure that the Bible is God's word? And thus, how can anyone be sure that Calvin is misinterpreting theological ideas?

spaminator101
08-15-2005, 08:23 PM
God was the force behind the writing
he designated authors who wrote the books through God
So they were really God's words

David Sklansky
08-15-2005, 08:23 PM
Is spaminator correct?

08-15-2005, 08:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Is spaminator correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a calvinist kind of way

andyfox
08-15-2005, 08:45 PM
Is there any evidence for this?

spaminator101
08-15-2005, 08:46 PM
no you just have to go on faith

andyfox
08-15-2005, 08:49 PM
“Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of the soul and body. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions."

That was some apple. Good thing we're protected now by individaul stickers on each one.

spaminator101
08-15-2005, 08:56 PM
actually we do not know it was an apple
for all we know the kind of fruit might be extinct

Zeno
08-15-2005, 09:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Is there any evidence for this?



[/ QUOTE ]

Evidence? We ain't got no evidence. We don't need no Evidence!!
I don't have to show you any stinking evidence!


The above brought to you by Gold Hat -

"Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges.
I don't have to show you any stinking badges!"

--Gold Hat, as played by Alfonso Bedoya
"The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" (1948)

Link for audio and video of this famous line (http://www.darryl.com/badges/)

Le Misanthrope

CCass
08-15-2005, 10:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Is spaminator correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

CCass
08-15-2005, 10:42 PM
Please give me a passage in the Bible that proves that my destiny has already been determined.

andyfox
08-15-2005, 11:30 PM
I also saw the line used in Blazing Saddles last night.

Cooker
08-16-2005, 01:50 AM
If God really set things up this way, then I think he is a douche bag (I hate use of that phrase, but love irony more). I think in some ways that Sklansky and I (both being atheist) have more faith in God (if he were to exist) to be just and sensible than most people of faith (irony in every sentence today).

I find it strange that the bible basically has God act like a 2 year old child and then says, "who are you to judge God, he works in mysterious ways, etc., etc." How can anyone who thinks straight take this stuff seriously?

PairTheBoard
08-16-2005, 01:59 AM
Does anybody know what,

"cabron and ching' tu madre"

means?

PairTheBoard

spaminator101
08-16-2005, 11:41 AM
here you go:
Romans 9
God's Sovereign Choice
1I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.
6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[b] 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[i] 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."[k]

29It is just as Isaiah said previously:
"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah."[l]

Israel's Unbelief
30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[m]

RxForMoreCowbell
08-16-2005, 02:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]

You see no matter how much man tries he can never be good because of his sinful nature.


[/ QUOTE ]

The way this is worded sounds like you are saying that human nature in general is bad. If so, shouldn't we try to reject those things about us which make us human? After all, God does not seem to think dogs and cats are inherently bad, so why shouldn't we try to be more like them?

Or, do you mean to say that humans can never be perfectly good, even though in general we can be pretty good? If so, I would try to avoid wording like "sinful nature", as it seems to imply the most evil human is equally moral to the most righteous.

uuDevil
08-16-2005, 03:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Does anybody know what,

"cabron and ching' tu madre"

means?

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

A su servicio:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cabron

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chinga+tu+madre

spaminator101
08-16-2005, 03:29 PM
i suppose you are right
thanks

DarrenX
08-16-2005, 05:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
actually we do not know it was an apple
for all we know the kind of fruit might be extinct

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe it is a 'quint'... I'll take foods that start with the letter Q for 400, Alex... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

08-16-2005, 05:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]

I believe it is a 'quint'... I'll take foods that start with the letter Q for 400, Alex... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

wow...you dont run into many White Men Cant Jump references

PairTheBoard
08-17-2005, 12:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does anybody know what,

"cabron and ching' tu madre"

means?

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

A su servicio:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cabron

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chinga+tu+madre

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. In the book, the "No stinkin badges" bandit included that little spanish insult. I can see why it didn't make the movie. I bet they'd put it in these days though.

PairTheBoard

CCass
08-17-2005, 05:27 PM
You can't just pull chapter 9 out and let it stand alone. You have to understand the context under which it was written. Read Chapter 8 before it and Chapter 10 after it. Paul is lamenting the fact that as a whole the Nation of Isreal hasn't accepted Christ as their savior. Under the old law, the Isrealite's (decendents of Abraham) were God's people. Now under the new law, all followers of the teachings of Christ are God's chosen people. Isrealite's no longer have a "free pass" simply because of their blood line.

And FWIW, God has pre-determined who will go to Heaven. Those that follow his teachings.