Clark/Dyno vs. Lee Jones

[Inthacup]

I've read a LOT of posts from the Clarkmeister/Dynasty duo. One thing general feeling that I get is that they don't worry too much about position in low limit games. In the past(I'm really not looking forward to skimming their old posts) I've seen Dynasty say things like "In most low limit games, small pocket pairs can be played from any position"(paraphrase). And "If I can't play QJs from UTG, I leave the table"(paraphrase)Also, I see Clark emphasize being able to outplay your opponents all the time, but rarely have I seen him emphasize position.

Lee Jones, on the other hand, makes it very clear in his book as well as his posts, that position is VERY important, and is a key factor in beating your opponents. I've seen him mention something about position in the majority of his posts here, while it just doesn't seem to be emphasized as greatly by the two most frequent posters.

I know it's important, but is it really THAT important in typical low limit games? If so, it seems like it really isn't discussed THAT much here. At least, not as much as should be warranted.



P.S. Later today, I'm going to spend a few hours rummaging through a combined 3000+ posts, and either reinforce, or discredit the idea that's running through my head right now.

[Tyler Durden]

Don't let anyone fool you--position is of critical importance in all limits of Texas Hold 'Em.

I strongly doubt that two successful players like Dyno and Clark feel that it is of little importance.

[JTG51]

I think you must be misunderstanding Clarkmeister and Dynasty.

For example, I've seen Clarkmeister say over and over again how position sensitive suited connectors are. He pointed out to David Ross that limping with T8s from EP was a very bad idea. I'm sure he would say folding the same hand on the button after 5 limpers would be a big mistake.

[Lee Jones]

[Lee Jones]

But seriously, I don't remember getting that sense ("Position isn't all that important in low-limit games") from their posts.

I haven't read anywhere near all their posts (or even a significant percentage thereof), but I have a notion that both of these guys know what they're talking about. If they didn't seem to think position was important, I probably wouldn't think that.

'Course, that doesn't prove they're right - just that they agree with me /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

Regards, Lee

[mrbaseball]

Position is everything. I started using hand tracking software a few weeks ago for my low limit online play (2-4 to 5-10) and it's quite evident that the better position I have the more profit I get. The button makes the most money and moves down a little bit each position further away you get. Until the blinds where I actually lose money.

Maybe I could make more up front and UTG but I usually just pitch 'em unless they are really strong.

[JTG51]

[Dynasty]

Lee Jones in the house!?

Position is very important and should never be underestimated. But, you shouldn't be playing so tightly in EP that you are folding pocket pairs and QJs if the game is a good loose-passive game.

Both Clarkmeister and myself play many more hands in late position than in early position. Perhaps, the confusion comes from what hands we play in all positions and what hands we add into the mix in later position.

Both of us are playing pocket pairs and QJs UTG while adding stuff as weak as 54s and T9o on the Button. Maybe you are playing 77+ from UTG and not adding the smaller pairs until later position? If so, I think you are missing opportunities.

[mrbaseball]

Loose passive games? Where are these? Once in a while I see one online but usually it's pretty tight (ie 2 to 3 players per flop). On my semiannual trips to Vegas I don't generally see play that is considered real loose passive either. Once again generally fairly tight although looser than online. But still not where I wanna start playing 22 utg.

[Dynasty]

Almost every (at least 90%) low-limit Vegas game I've played in is good enough to play 22 UTG.

[Homer]

What site do you play at online? Try Party Poker.

What casino do you play at in Vegas? Try Mandalay Bay, Monte Carlo, Excalibur, Mirage......

-- Homer

[mrbaseball]

I play mostly Paradise but have accts at Stars and WSEX too. I absolutely loathe wsex software though and mainly use that for sports bets. Stars is okay for tourneys but the ring games are far and few between. 99% of my play is at Paradise.

In Vegas I mainly play 6-12/8-16 at Mirage and Bellagio. I'm going out in a few weeks and if all goes well the fisrt few days I hope to try some 10-20 and maybe some 15-30.

[Inthacup]

Okay, I'm going to have to give my evidence in blocks, seeing as searching for these posts is meticulous.

In the 50 hands w/ clarky thread from 10/02, he claims it's a "typical online weak tight" online game. In these 50 hands, he includes raising UTG+1 w/ 77 and 88, UTG +2 w/ 99, limping UTG +1 w/ Js 8s, open raising w/ 33 in MP.

In the "J9s in any" thread he says "If the game is passive with poor players, you can play it[J9s] UTG"

In the "River bluff, good poker or throwing away money?" thread he says "I limp UTG with 9hTh. I consider raising but had raised the previous hand 2UTG with Ad2d. I won, but had to show it down, so I figured limping was best here."

I also remember his thoughts on playing A10 suited UTG. From my recollection, he said he almost always raised w/ A10suited, and raised A10un about 50% of the time.

Now, I know it's Clarkmeister, but it seems like he puts his ability to outplay opponents postflop before his regard for position. I don't consider all of his decisions to be "bad", but I also don't think that position is priority 1 here.

[Homer]

This doesn't prove that he doesn't take position into account. What does he play from late position? Take that and compare it to his EP standards...

-- Homer

[Inthacup]

I don't think you should look at it like "what he plays in EP relative to LP". I'm saying what he plays in EP vs. what Lee Jones suggests and post in his book WLLHE. Clark limps UTG w/ J9s and 910s(considers raising). And raises 77,88,99 and A2s from EP. This is pretty stark in contrast to what "the books" say. Basically, I see Clark and Dyno limp and raise in EP with drawing hands. And I see Lee Jones playing very tight in EP and playing those drawing hands in MP and especially LP. Although I have read in HEPFAP that you should occasionally raise hands like 99,88 from EP to keep your opponents guessing.

And let me say that I'm not trying to unleash an anti-Clark or anti-Dyno sentiment. I just see a great deal of variation in their styles than I do in Lee Jones'. I'm not siding with either. I'm playing devils advocate, because if it is profitable to limp with 9 10s or J9s UTG in low limts then so be it. But if not, then why do it?

[JTG51]

I don't think you should look at it like "what he plays in EP relative to LP".

But that's the only thing you can look at when you say a player ignores position. You said Clarkmeister disregards position in his preflop choices, Homer is trying to show you that may not be true. The truth is, Clarkmeister plays looser from EP (and any other position) than many other posters, including Lee Jones. The fact that Clarkmeister plays a lot more hands from EP doesn’t say anything about the importance, or lack there of, that he gives to position. However, the fact that he plays a lot more hands from LP than EP does. It shows that he considers position very carefully.

I think you would have a valid point if you started out saying Clarkmeister plays looser than Lee Jones recommends. That's almost definitely true. That's a lot different than saying he ignores position.

[Inthacup]

Good point JT. I don't feel that Clark completely disregards position. I do feel that he plays more hands in LP than EP. However, I seems apparent that he bets and (sometimes)raises in EP with mid pairs, and suited connectors and suited aces. According to Lee Jones, these are drawing hands. And they are to be played in LP(or late MP after a few limpers). If you're first in with these hands, sometimes raising with them, then that seems pretty contradictory.

How about this: Clarkmeister ignores the positional importance of playing drawing hands(in regards to early position). He also ignores the importance of having several limpers in the pot before playing mid and low pocket pairs.

When 1 player(Lee Jones) says that he suggests at least 5 players in the pot to play 22 on the button, and another says you can play 22 from UTG(DYNO) and another(Clark) says you can open raise w/ 33 in MP, I find that a little confusing. Who's wrong here, if were all talking about the same game?

[Bob T.]

The other thing to consider is, many of these hands that CM played in early position, he openraised. This will improve his position by folding several hands that play after his, and allow him to take control of the hand, and make reads off of his opponents reactions.

I think that if you look at the hands, that he plays on or near the button, and how he plays them, you will see that he does factor position into his preflop decisions.

You also have to realize that he plays more hands, more aggresively, than many people on this forum do. But, your decisions which hands you play, and how you play them, isn't just based on the cards you hold, and what the board is, and how many opponents you have. It is also based on your style and strategy as a whole. CM has a lot of experience in hands where he open raised, or raised second in, so by playing that way, he can get into situations where he understands the tactics that should be employed in the types of pots that he is contesting. His opponents might be more comfortable making decisions in multiway pots that are being contested for 1 bet preflop, consequently when he raises, he changes the terrain that the game is being played upon, so that it fits into scenarios that he is accustomed to playing in.

Finally, you have to remember the venue that he is playing in Las Vegas, and I think that LV players have advantages over the rest of us in terms of the games that they can play in. This is limited to my experience, but if I go to Canterbury, and play 6-12, or 8-16, the worst players in the game are weak playing cardroom regulars, and they mostly have enough experience to be dangerous in certain situations. The same is true of online games. My experience in Las Vegas has been that although the best players are much better than the players that I see every day at Canterbury, the worst players in LV are much worse. They are either playing poker as another table game, or they are home game players who are playing as their big adventure in gambling in Las Vegas. Where the money is made is not from battling with the good players, but by taking advantage of the big mistakes that the weak players make. If you are playing in a very unsophisticated table, plays like limping UTG or playing AT in early positon might not be punished as quickly or accurately as if you make those same plays against more practiced players. Consequently, I think that in those games, a good postflop player could open up his starting requirements quite a bit. This also has the advantage of maybe teaching the weaker players that all of those hands that they thought couldn't be played in those positions are played by that guy who seems strong, so I think that I can play them also.

Remember, it is all about getting into situations that you recognize, are comfortable with, and are able to exploit. I'm certain that we all play some hands in ways that aren't completely by the book, but if we can get it into a situation that we know how to deal with, then we are probably playing with positive EV in that situation.

[Bubmack]

Nice post Inthacup!!

I think one point that should be accounted for is the fact that Lee Jones' book is for low limit and was written about 3 years ago (I think). I imagine that the games he was trying to beat were very bad and no one payed much attention to another player's play. Now, I think that poker in general is very much tougher (at least online). Therefore, tricky play will begin to have value. Lee Jones' methodology is very mechanical and will get the money - as long as your game selection is good.

Also, there are different methods of playing that will win in the long run. There is not only one long term true way to win. (unless you are talking about 7,2o UTG)

Bubs

[Bob T.]

When 1 player(Lee Jones) says that he suggests at least 5 players in the pot to play 22 on the button, and another says you can play 22 from UTG(DYNO) and another(Clark) says you can open raise w/ 33 in MP, I find that a little confusing. Who's wrong here, if were all talking about the same game?

Noone is wrong. How you play, and what you play is determined by your style, your opponents style, and how they interact. I used to reqularly throw small pairs away in EP, today I open raised 88 UTG. My style has changed, because I am more familiar with the types of situations that I am going to get into. The other day, I called a bet on every street with two overcards to my small pair. I couldn't have done that, a while ago, but I did it, believing that I was ahead, and knowing that I couldn't get my opponent to lay down his two overcards to the board. I won, and he had AQ. But it was a situation that I had faced with this opponent, and I thought I knew where I was, and I was correct. How you play determines what you can play. I think that both Dynasty, and CM play very well postflop, so that they can can open up the range of hands that they play against most opponents. Those plays might work for them, and for some of us, they are beginning to work, and for others, they don't see how they can work, yet. But with more experience, they will be able to see how they work, and incorporate them into their play.

[rharless]

Clarky's Implied Odds thread (http://www.twoplustwo.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=226168& Forum=smallholdem&Words=94o&Match=Entire%20Phrase& Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=1month&Main=226168&Searc h=true#Post226168)

I think this thread above singlehandedly shows CM is position aware. You don't see him talking about hands where he open-raises 94o in EP /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

I played with him briefly in Vegas, and he scared the buhgeesus out of me the whole time (only partly joking /forums/images/icons/wink.gif ). His hand reading/player assessment skills are well above average and this allows him some creative license, imho.

I would feel safe in guessing the same skillset applies to Dynasty.

[Inthacup]

Noone is wrong.

Let me rephrase. These things shouldn't be gauged in "right" or "wrong". Who profits the most here? I'm not looking to prove anyone wrong. I'm simply trying to find the most profitable style of play for low limits. Which style is more sound, limping UTG w/ 22 or waiting until you're in LP(at least MP) w/ 22?


today I open raised 88 UTG

LOL

[Ed Miller]

You are totally misunderstanding. Clarkmeister's (and S&M's, if you actually care to read their preflop section) point is that you don't have to play airtight poker from UTG if your opponents play passively and poorly. Clarkmeister isn't saying that position isn't important... he is saying that you can profitably loosen up in EP when playing against poor players. That's it.

Many players on this board tend to celebrate how tightly they play... especially UTG. These players will fold hands like 77, KJs, and AJo UTG no matter the game because "they don't play that trash UTG." This is just pigheaded, IMHO. These players are more interested in playing tightly than they are in making money.

Clarkmeister and Dynasty are just saying that in appropriately passive games, a wider range of hands can be played profitably UTG.

[Ed Miller]

How about this: Clarkmeister ignores the positional importance of playing drawing hands(in regards to early position). He also ignores the importance of having several limpers in the pot before playing mid and low pocket pairs.

No. Clarkmeister would fold all these hands from UTG in a tough game, I guarantee. He plays these hands from EP only because he can reasonably expect several limpers and no raisers behind him. I think you should reread the EP preflop section of HPFAP. S&M cover this exact adjustment that Clarkmeister makes.

[Clarkmeister]

I haven't gotten into a ton of detail reading this thread, so I hope I don't reiterate what some have already said, but here's my 2 second take regarding the sub-thread about my mix of hands.

Poker is a game of constant adjustment. When I tell davidross he can't play 8Ts in EP in any PP 5-10 game, I mean it. I think he, and I, would be giving up a significant amount in a game that averages 2-3 players for 2 bets preflop.

Some PP 2-4 games can be very good. But lately it is my experience that even these games have become significantly overaggressive in nature. When this happens, you simply must "limp heavy" sometimes and not try and play garbage like JTs UTG. Its amazing how much action you get when you limp with AQ and the guy with AJ raises to isolate you because he doesn't recognize how tight you have been playing in EP.

However there are very very few live games where there is this level of agression. Whereas a PP 2-4 game can average nearly 50% pots raised preflop, most LL live games are much closer to 10%. These passive players also play more poorly postflop and are much more readable. This is when you add extra hands into your mix in all positions.

The hands that I like to add in first are the ones with showdown value. This means pairs and suited aces. I'll play A2s before playing 89s. In shorthanded pots, you simply must be able to win unimproved some of the time in case it turns into a pissing contest. Obviously this does NOT mean you go to every showdown.

Game texture and adjustments are everything in holdem. Also note that I do almost nothing 100% of the time. Raising something like 33 in MP depends on so many factors:

1. Have I been involved in many pots lately?
2. How tight are the blinds?
3. What is my table image *today*
4. How tight are the players between me and the button?
5. How likely am I to win on the flop when I autobet?

Its not as simple as "Folded to me in MP, I open raise with 33 because thats what I do in that spot".

Its a game of constant adjustments coupled with personal preferences. I think most writers grossly undervalue pocket pairs. I think S&M grossly overvalue suited connectors in general. I think most people overvalue offsuit aces like ATo or A9o and undervalue suited aces like A7s.

And, despite the impression that some have seen, I think most people grossly undervalue position. Or at least, they fail to recognize game textures that dictate changes in their "default" strategy.

Sorry for rambling.

Oh, and whoever cited that 94o thread picked a good one that IMO exemplifies how important I think position can be, COUPLED with how to identify a game texture that is condusive to adding significantly to your range of hands.


PS to rharless. I like the use of the word buhjeesus or whatever. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

OK, I'm off. Hope I made sense.

[Mike Gallo]

At least once a month someone has something bad to say about Clarkmeister or Dynasty. Has that become the chic thing to do?

P.S. Later today, I'm going to spend a few hours rummaging through a combined 3000+ posts, and either reinforce, or discredit the idea that's running through my head right now.

Look up their profiles and click on see all users posts. You then can read all of their posts. You will then realize how silly this post will sound after you have rearead their posts.

Dynasty did play 9 7 suited utg recently on a road trip to LA. However the game was loose and passive. He clearly explained why he played the hand. He posted it for that reason.

Both Clarkmeister and Dynasty do indeed pay close attention to position. Both recognize the type of game that allows then to deviate from their normal play. I do not think they could post every garden variety hand that they have won.

They play in a 4-8 game with 1-2 blinds. Wouldnt you limp UTG with 55 for $2?

Lee Jones, on the other hand, makes it very clear in his book as well as his posts, that position is VERY important, and is a key factor in beating your opponents

Dynasty and Clarkmeister havent written a book, they dont need to stress anything. They offer examples of why certain plays that go "against the grain" make sense and work.

I've seen him mention something about position in the majority of his posts here, while it just doesn't seem to be emphasized as greatly by the two most frequent posters.

From now on Dynasty and Clarkmeister please emphasize postion.


I have not looked at any other responses yet, however I do not understand the general idea of the post. If they post a hand that they have played out of position they explain the reasoning behind it. I think this post has a hidden message or a different agenda.

Reread their posts, you will see they both play solid poker and give solid advice.

Best wishes

Michael

[samdash]

What's your pp handle and what limits do you normally play?

[bernie]

havent read the other responses yet.

position is also very important in looser games even with braindeads. notice i didnt mention limit since this type of game can happen in higher limits even though not as often.

there is a huge advantage in acting last. no matter which texture game youre in. jones is right on that. however, i dont think ive seen clark or dynasty underemphasize position's importance. they may forget to include a disclaimer maybe. forgetting that with their experience they likely play post flop better than many who may read their posts. so what they post may seem to look like an easy play, yet they know how to read the opposition to be able to play certain hands from certain positions, where others may not understand how to minimize the loss should the hand go sideways. just a thought.

QJs isnt a stretch to play UTG, you just better be able to play off the flop with it. you also have to be able to dump it sometimes preflop if its 2 or 3 bets back to you. it can be a dangerous hand UTG. but it usually does ok. though not as dangerous as QJo.

ive noticed a slight change in the forum (many posters) the last few months. seems many advocate playing a titch looser preflop than one needs, and than what used to be the recommendation. primarily in regards to KQo and AJo. 2 hands that are highly texture dependent to play in EP, many seem to play these regularly from this spot with no regard for texture...

anyways...

now to see what the others typed.

b

[elysium]

hi in,
position is very important as i'm sure you know. therefore, you must have some pretty compelling evidence to be swayed into approaching the subject of positon less defferentially than advocated by top or hfap. and there is really no evidence out there otherwise.

for example; clark and dynasty can win without looking at their cards. but if you tried this feat on your own, i'm sure you would find many participants willing to be used as subjects in your little experiment; many indeed. shoot, i'll sign up for it.

so never try such feats. if the experts recommend that you respect the importance of position, respect it. if the experts recommend that you look at your cards before making a decision, unless your playing from the blind pre-pre-flop, you will have to post a blind; look at your cards intha, even if sometimes a great player makes an aberrational play to show off his skill. and to appear loose. er. clark.

yes, look at your cards before playing them. how in the world did we ever ....am i telling someone they must first look at their cards?.....oh for crying out loud!

[bernie]

i dont want to bring back an old thread but...

"PP 2-4 game can average nearly 50% pots raised preflop, most LL live games are much closer to 10%."

1 preflop raise an orbit? maybe 2? i noticed the gravy tables in vegas the short time i was there also. but in other areas, especially up here, this number is a little low. even for LL. not that this is LA aggressive up here, (sometimes), if you get into a 2-4 or 3-6 up here, hold on to your hat. it calms quite a bit at 4-8 though. but it is a little more aggressive than the 'typical' games youre mentioning.

however, you mention the table texture in your hand posts so it makes the point moot.

b

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Clarkmeister,
I agree with your premise that HE is a game of adjustments.

Here's what's baffling the be-jesus out of me.

How do I know how much of an adjustment to make.

For example (and it may be a bad one since I'm still learning about HE)...

Suppose in a "normal" game we believe that playing, say 89s is profitable from, say, MP with oh... 4 callers. And 89s is the smalled middle-suited-connector that'd be profitable.

Now the game loosens up some... how much further down do I know is profitable? 78s? 67s? and so on.

Beyond that, how would I know that 89s was profitable in that spot in the first place?

Short of running sims, I just don't get where these reccomendations come from or what the math is that makes them correct.

So how do you pro-types figure these things out with any certainty?

Sincerely,
AA

[Ulysses]

So how do you pro-types figure these things out with any certainty?

I'm far from a pro-type, but I'm very comfortable playing in many different game textures (ranging from no fold'em passive 3-6 to very tight aggressive 20-40). And yes, adapting your play to the game is definitely important.

But there's no formula for how much to adjust. Instead, it's a much more iterative process. If the game texture allows you to open up a little and play a few more hands, try a couple and see what works. If you find yourself getting trapped a lot or playing a lot of dominated hands, you've gone a little too far. Play enough and you'll find the right middle ground. Do that for a few different table textures and soon you'll have enough data points to extrapolate from for a wide range of conditions.

Bear in mind that adjusting your game is not just about playing more or less hands. It's also about how you play them. In a tight or shorthanded game, I like big cards that fare well heads up. In a loose-passive game, I love suited connectors. I'll leave it to others to elaborate on what kind of hands they prefer in different conditions.

Dynasty has brought up the point a number of times that knowing the game conditions entails not just knowing how many players see the flop and whether it is usually raised, but also the general ranges of hands people limp and raise with. If you're in a game where people are limping in early w/ AQo and AKo (and I see tons of games where people don't raise AKo after a couple of limpers), that ATo in late position isn't looking so good anymore. That should definitely be a big part of your decision-making process.

[34TheTruth34]

As far as the CT games go, in the Foxwoods 2/4 game I would play ANY pair and all suited connectors down to like 87s, and all suited aces UTG (about 90% of the time). That's because almost all pots are 5-7 way for one bet each before the flop. In the Mohegan 3-6 game, I'd play 55 and above, T9s and above, and A9s and above UTG about 75-80% of the time. And in either 5/10 kill game, I'd stick to Lee's tighter requirements, because at these limits the games are much tighter and more agressive and tougher.

The weak players in the 2/4 game tend to be loose passive callling stations. The weak players in the 3/6 game tend to be slightly aggressive any-two-will-do players, and the weak players in the 5/10 games tend to be loose aggressive.

So, it's not that they don't think that position is important, it's just that you should be getting the odds to limp in from UTG with these hands. C/D make a good point that if you can't play these hands in a low-limit game, then you shouldn't be in the game to begin with. Sometimes the 3-6 game plays like a tight Vegas 20-40 game (especially during the weekdays, like Tuesday afternoons). These are the games where you really don't have much of an edge, so why play? In the lower limits, you make the majority of your money from your opponents' bad play and not from your great play. So it goes without saying that if you can't play all those extra hands that are profitable because your opponents play so many hands (and play them passively), then it's not the ideal low limit game.

[Dynasty]

What's your pp handle and what limits do you normally play?

Forget it. I doubt he would tell me his handle.

[Clarkmeister]

LOL, true.

In fact, I've even changed it recently.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Ulysses,
You make some good points to ponder. At least I'm not missing something mathematical. (That 10% of the game Super-System says is the "easy part"! /forums/images/icons/wink.gif )

I did find it easier when I was playing stud full time to do this, at least with the regulars at the Mirage at the lower limits.

To be honest, the little bit of HE I've played by comparison, I've found it hard to draw a bead on folks. Seems that often, when I'm out of a hand and trying to get info... the guys I'm watching fold! Never get to draw a conclusion!

Drawing a bead quickly and accurately is something I'll definitely need to address.

Sincerely,
AA