TT against a 3-bet...

[meep_42]

Villain has taggy stats, but I have no specific reads on him.

Hero is on the Button with T/images/graemlins/spade.gifT/images/graemlins/club.gif
1 MP limper, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, folds to BB, <font color="red">BB 3-bets</font>, limper folds, Hero calls.

2 to the flop for 7.5 SB
Flop: [2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
<font color="red">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, planning to raise a non-AKQ turn, fold an AK turn, call a Q turn.

Good? Bad? Ugly?

-d

[shant]

This is good plan yes.

[jason_t]

Good.

[chief444]

yep.

Can someone explain the reason for not raising the flop but instead raising the turn? What kind of hand can you expect pfr to have?

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone explain the reason for not raising the flop but instead raising the turn? What kind of hand can you expect pfr to have?

[/ QUOTE ]

AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ - possibly TT/99/AJs

Against which I have 2, 2, 2, 0, -6, and -6 outs. I'm passing up what looks to be a thin edge here in order to exploit the edge on the turn where: a) i'm unlikely to get 3-bet by a worse hand and b) am able to take a free showdown on a K/Q river or c) able to fold out a 99/TT or possibly overcards (if he's weak post-flop or 3-betting light)

-d

[istewart]

Calling an 8 turn for the same reasons as a Q turn?

[meep_42]

Raising an 8, calling a 3-bet and folding UI on the river.

-d

[Erik W]

Seems fine but your intentions to fold out a 99 set on the turn seems a little to ambitious or did u forget the 9 on the flop /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Seems to be a good move!

[molawn2mo]

As played (just calling the flop), nobody sees a problem here when a K turns and you check behind or bet and get called or raised? Under this scenario...

1. the turn check behind is too weak and gives villain a look at 2 cards for free when you are likely to have best hand.
2. the turn bet puts you in the awkward position of having no clue as to being ahead or behind, being raised for value or for a free showdown.

I sorta think bet the flop and if called fire on the turn and have that be the last monies you put in. If rasied on the flop, you can fold the turn UI.

I may be a cult of 1, here. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[peterchi]

[ QUOTE ]

I sorta think bet the flop and if called fire on the turn and have that be the last monies you put in. If rasied on the flop, you can fold the turn UI.


[/ QUOTE ]

How can you do this? Do you mean raise the flop?

[molawn2mo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I sorta think bet the flop and if called fire on the turn and have that be the last monies you put in. If rasied on the flop, you can fold the turn UI.


[/ QUOTE ]

How can you do this? Do you mean raise the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah. i type sucky. i am postulating to raise the flop and bet the turn and that be the end (if UI).

thank you. need coffee.

[meep_42]

If he checks the turn, i'm betting any card.

-d

[molawn2mo]

[ QUOTE ]
If he checks the turn, i'm betting any card.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]



first... apologies for my intial post that seems rather deranged now (no offense will). my bad.

second, i changed my mind... since the hands that you are ahead of are roughly equal to the hands that you are behind, it is better to wait and let the turn card determine your course of action.

nicely conceived.

EDIT: i can only attribute my retarted moran analysis to ending last evening's session at ~ 3 AM and having no coffee this morning before responding initally. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[meep_42]

It's ok, I said villain might fold a set earlier. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

-d

[Derek in NYC]

I would raise the flop and fold to a flop reraise or donk bet on 4th street unless I hit a set or picked up an OESD. You are probably behind, and a re-raise will help you get away from your hand earlier. AK (16) vs AA (6), KK (6), QQ (6), or JJ (3).

[meep_42]

Does this differ that wildly from the Two Overpair hands in SSH?

-d

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ - possibly TT/99/AJs

[/ QUOTE ]

Too broad for full ring. Three-betting from the BB against a non-steal mid position raise is going to be JJ-AA and AK I think.

[ QUOTE ]
in order to exploit the edge on the turn where: a) i'm unlikely to get 3-bet by a worse hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Even given the range of hands you put villain on, I think there is a good chance you're getting 3 bet on the turn. You are ahead of 20 combos on the turn (AK or AQs) and you chop with 1 combo (TT). By contrast, AA-QQ will be an overpair to the board, JJ will be top set, 99 will be middle set--24 combos, all of which should 3 bet you.

AJs (3 more combos) will clearly call, and might even three-bet you. And even if you aren't going to get 3-bet by AJs, you'll be betting his hand for him when he has 5 outs and you have 2.

You gave no reads to indicate this guy is likely to 3-bet light, and indeed three-betting from the BB against a limper and a raiser would be near maniacal with even your range of hands.

I think your plan is just an excuse to LAG it up.

[Derek in NYC]

hugely so. i dont have SSH in front of me, however:

1. you are not an overpair
2. the preflop action allows you to put BB on a pretty narrow range of hands, most of which you are behind.

EDIT: 3. also it occurs to me that this hand is HU, not multiway. in a multiway pot, where so many more cards can fall that kill your hand, your edge increases significantly on a 4th street blank. in a HU pot, on a drawless board, there are at worst 6 cards in the deck to hurt you, so you dont need to wait-and-see quite as much. also, it goes without saying, you dont need to "protect your hand" in a HU pot... it's all about value bets.

[ReptileHouse]

What's your impression of how villain sees you?

I strongly prefer raising on the flop instead of the turn. BB may well be isolation raising here, so his range is a bit larger than a normal 3-bet range.

Something like: AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, AA-99 (or even 88 if he's feeling frisky and thinks he can outplay you HU).

The flop bet from the BB very much feels like it could be an attempt by the BB to define your hand, not a value bet. Raise and let him know you have a real hand. If he re-raises, you have a much better idea of what you're up against.

[meep_42]

First off - I don't at all remember if this was a short-full table. I do recall that I had raised a few hands in the last 10-12 isolating some weak players to my right, though -- but nothing more than 3/10 or 4/12-ish

Results:

Turn was an A, I folded.

-d

[Kevroc]

I like rasing the flop and taking the freebie if AKQ turns and betting anything else.

I call a flop 3 bet and release if i dont spike a ten or pick up a draw on turn.