Why would you ever use the "loose games" SSH chart?

[aargh57]

The loose games SSH chart says it applies when there are 6-8 players on the flop on average. Let's assume that the blinds never fold and you play 17% of your hands. That means in every pot there will be 2.17 people in it to start. That means out of the remaining 7, 3.83 people need to be in the hand. That means the VPIP % would need to be 55%. I think it's pretty safe to say that you could go quite a long time without running into a table of this type. (Also, when you start to consider blinds not playing 100% the figure gets even higher.) Am I missing something?

[SheridanCat]

These games are not uncommon live. The last couple years at the low limit live games, I've definitely seen this type of lineup. Even at mid-limits these games exist. They're less common online, in my experience at the limits I play.

Regards,

T

[AKQJ10]

Or to summarize Sheridan's reply: get thee to a casino. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

7 to the flop is quite common at Foxwoods $2/4.

[Rosencrantz1]

I've found 6-7 to a flop to be quite common at the .25/.50 tables on Pokerroom.com Pokerroom posts, for each table, the avg. % to the flop, and it's not uncommon to find a table with between 60 and 70% to the flop.

[aargh57]

Thanks for the replys. I guess I should've specified that I play $1/2 - $3/6 online. When I do go to Vegas, you're right, sometimes the games do get this loose. I do see these games, especially at night when the card rooms are getting full.

[bholdr]

i was playing in a 4/8 game the other night where EVERYONE except me was in the pot THREE times in a ROW.

it is rare online, but i see 6+ to the flop in games as high as 2/4 sometimes.

[Webster]

Never see them in 1/2 BUT you will in .£.5/1 at Crypto and that is ALMOST 1/2. $.99/1.8 at the moment.

[NateDog]

In Palm Desert a few weeks back, I was in a juicy 4/8 with a full kill (full kill means the stakes raise to 8/16 after someone wins 2 pots in a row, forgot it was the beginners forum ) /images/graemlins/grin.gif that was routinely 6+ to the TURN.

[XxGodJrxX]

In the local Indian Casino, I have never seen any game where there WASN'T 7 or 8 to the flop. I would also use the loose guidelines in one of the .5/1 beginner tables on Party if I was able to sit down in one.

[Webster]

In the 4 months in Wisconsin that we had casino poker 10/20 games were 70% flops 100% of the time.

The weekend starts at the Vegas MGM about 3:00 Thursday afternoon. From then until late Sunday night, 7+ players seeing the flop is the norm on the 2/4 limit table, and 2/3 of those hands will be raised. Expect a capped preflop pot with at least 6 players every 12 to 15 hands, even more often after 11 pm.

I have said it before, I've played in tighter online free-chip games than I usually see here on the Strip.

[aargh57]

Webster, I'm assuming you were referring to HoChunk. Do you ever go to the one in Milwaukee?

[deepdowntruth]

Also, you've got St. Croix casino in Turtle Lake. But it may as well be Minnesota.

Live at 2/4 and 3/6, 6 to the flop is fairly common.

Online .25/.50 as well.

The reason is because at these levels there is generally very little pre-flop raising - until, of course, you with your SSHE guidelines sit down.

My suspicion is that after you sit down, there are likely to be fewer players in most pots because of your pre-flop raising.

"at these levels there is generally very little pre-flop raising"

Where? Not at the south end of the Strip! Raising per SSHE, you fit right in and few players, if any, will notice.

"fewer players in most pots because of your pre-flop raising"

If you mean that it knocks players out of the hand, well, of course it does, sometimes. However, if you mean that it dissuades players from playing future crap hands, more often, it puts them on tilt (whether they realize or not), especially if they have been drinking hard.

[ QUOTE ]
"at these levels there is generally very little pre-flop raising"

Where? Not at the south end of the Strip! Raising per SSHE, you fit right in and few players, if any, will notice.

"fewer players in most pots because of your pre-flop raising"

If you mean that it knocks players out of the hand, well, of course it does, sometimes. However, if you mean that it dissuades players from playing future crap hands, more often, it puts them on tilt (whether they realize or not), especially if they have been drinking hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the first point, I was recently at the Mirage and I was struck by how little pre-flop raising was going on. I was playing a good game and raising fairly frequently and people were looking at me like I was ruining their fun.

On your second point, yes, those are the two likely outcomes.

The point I was making is that if you have a passive, loose table - ie. lots of people playing a lot of hands, but very few preflop raises - and you introduce someone playing the SSHE approach pre-flop, then they are more likely to be playing against 3-5 opponents, as opposed to 6-8.

But I agree 100% that in the long run, playing the right way against passive players is likely to put them on tilt. My favorite line was when a guy said "I keep gettin these hands that I want to play, but he keeps raising me before the flop, so I gotta call some of em or I'll never win". I heard that at least 3 times during my week at the Mirage - and I would raise pre-flop the following hand EVERY SINGLE TIME.

[AKQJ10]

First off, I wanted to address the point above btw. Hank and silver_static by stating the obvious. Some low-limit games are loose-passive. Other low-limit games are loose aggressive. Few are in any way tough or tight, although it happens from time to time. (You're not the only Ed Miller fan starting at $2/4 or whatever.)

Conventional wisdom seems to be that loose-aggressive games are more the norm in California, and what I've seen gives me no reason to doubt that. (I recall taking a beating in a wonderful $3/6 game at the Crystal Park in LA where a Korean gentleman said roughly once per betting round, "No raise, no WIN!") These games are still wildly profitable -- if you get to choose to enjoy an 8-way cap when you have good cards and fold when you have bad cards, you're certainly going to be a long-term winner -- but potentially a given session can be tougher on your wallet and your self-esteem because of variance.


[ QUOTE ]
My suspicion is that after you sit down, there are likely to be fewer players in most pots because of your pre-flop raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience that's not really the effect of preflop raising in games such as $2/4 and often $4/8 at Foxwoods (poker.wikicities.com/wiki/Foxwoods). Of course there's a selection bias here because I don't see when an opponent folds T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif to my raise with aces, but I do see when he makes trip fours on the river. So I won't claim to know what most fish do, but I will say that there are plenty who will call a PFR with suited junk or poor offsuit aces just as surely as they'll limp in.

[Guthrie]

Page 93: "Our advice is to follow the loose game guidelines until proven otherwise. That's because at the small stakes there are so many confused and poorly-skilled players that failing to play the extra hands should prove far more costly those times when you should play them than they will save you those times you should throw them away."

I started out using the loose charts at .25/.50, through .50/1, and I'm just now tightening up a little as I move into 1/2. I have repeatedly examined those extra hands and I believe my results are consistent with Ed's advice.

If you use the loose charts, however, expect to be constantly ridiculed by the resident TAGs when you post hands. They will ignore your post-flop play and label your pre-flop call suicidal.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
If you use the loose charts, however, expect to be constantly ridiculed by the resident TAGs when you post hands. They will ignore your post-flop play and label your pre-flop call suicidal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, poker's all about adjusting to context. If they're failing to adjust to low-limit hold 'em (especially low-limit brick-and-mortar hold 'em), they're losing expectation.

It bears noting here that SSHE isn't really intended to be a beginner's manual. I haven't heard that reminder issued in a while, probably because the release of GSIH made it clearer. Beginners playing the loose game guidelines may get themselves in trouble. (I did in fall '04!)

[ QUOTE ]
Page 93: "Our advice is to follow the loose game guidelines until proven otherwise. That's because at the small stakes there are so many confused and poorly-skilled players that failing to play the extra hands should prove far more costly those times when you should play them than they will save you those times you should throw them away."

I started out using the loose charts at .25/.50, through .50/1, and I'm just now tightening up a little as I move into 1/2. I have repeatedly examined those extra hands and I believe my results are consistent with Ed's advice.

If you use the loose charts, however, expect to be constantly ridiculed by the resident TAGs when you post hands. They will ignore your post-flop play and label your pre-flop call suicidal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that i read that and reflect on my limited experience at these 3 levels, I would have to agree.

At the .25/.50, you really have a lot of fishy players - but the move from that to 1/2 is massive - much tighter, much more aggressive.

[Guthrie]

That's quite true. I may be an exception, since I had played some b&m before starting online, and I studied the game and this forum for six months before making a deposit. I suspect most beginners just grab a starting hands chart and fire away.

Nevertheless, I'm glad I used the loose charts. This resulted in playing probably one-third more hands, putting me in thousands more post-flop situations than had I used the tight charts. Since the goal is to improve post-flop, this was quite beneficial. It helps, of course, that I stayed well ahead during this time, otherwise the extra hands could have been a disaster.

Playing the extra hands and seeing the results, both immediately and on review in PT, has definitely made it easier to adjust as I move up. Instead of just switching charts, I'm now looking at more hands individually and making a decision based on a lot more factors than the chart.

[AASooted]

[ QUOTE ]
I suspect most beginners just grab a starting hands chart and fire away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be surprised if most beginners even do this much. I know I didn't when I started playing in January. I was from the "it's only $.50 to see a flop" school of poker -- if I had any two cards ten or better, any connectors or any two suited cards, I was probably in for a flop. I'm very glad I don't have PokerTracker stats on my first few months of playing. It would be embarrasing.

[CORed]

Play in a B&M 2/4 or 3/6 (or 2-5 spread)game and you will find out why the loose game preflop chart can be useful. It's no at all unusual to get 7 or 8 seeing a flop in low limit live games.