Questions and a hand...

[ElSapo]

A few questions about low limit online hold’em…

I’ve recently started playing, and have found so far that I have huge chip swings – sometimes as much as 20BB in an hour. At the limit I’m playing now — I swore I’d feel like a consistent winner at the lowest (.5/1) limits before moving up — I feel like I get called and rundown no matter what the bet at times. Consequently, 74s calls down my AKs when the final board comes out A-Q-7-6-4. These are old gripes, sure, I just wonder if the small limits lead to more callers, leading to higher fluctuations. Although it should easily work the other way also…

I’ve gotten into the habit of betting the flop if I raised pre-flop. If I have AK and the flop comes low I bet out. However, I’ve never seen anyone actually fold to that flop bet – it takes the turn bet to convince someone, but by that time I’m unsure if they’re calling just to call and hope to catch, or b/c they did already hit a card. Is betting the flop on overcards a bad move, especially at this limit?

Pre-flop raising does not seem to ever knock out a limper. If I’m on the button, there are five limpers and I raise, they all call. I almost never see it raised again, and I’ve never seen a pre-flop cap. Is this normal at these limits?

Is playing and winning this limit more a function of playing superior cards and betting when you hit a hand, bailing when you don’t?

Do other players here find it difficult to get a read on people online? I find that in a B&M room I remember players and how they play much better than just remembering a name or a seat online.

I’ll post one hand here, but it’s pretty straightforward, I think. I don’t know how else it could be played. Given the pre-flop raise and the turn raise, I thought maybe I was against a stronger King?

Any thoughts appreciated.

1. I’m in the big blind and get ThKs. Five fold, one raise, one cold calls the raise, blinds complete (mistake to call?). Four to the flop. Flop comes JdKc5h. Small blind checks, I bet and three callers (SB folds). Turn is 7d, I bet and am raised. Last position calls, I call. River is a 2h. I check, all check and I take it down with the kings. Raiser had QQ, late position had JsAc.

[Bob T.]

I’ve recently started playing, and have found so far that I have huge chip swings – sometimes as much as 20BB in an hour

If you play a non-volatile style of play, your standard deviation in a live game might be as low as 8-10 big bets per hour. This means that you will occasionally experience hours with swings of 24 big bets. You will play about twice as many hands per hour online, so your would expect that your standard deviation would be about 1.4 times as large. So a 'normal' hour might swing 12 to 14 bets, and a volatile hour could be as much as 30 to 40 bets.

Is betting the flop on overcards a bad move, especially at this limit?


The more opponents you have, the more likely that someone is ahead of you, with a lot of opponents (4 or more), you might want to make the player who actually hit the flop do the work. With 1 or 2, you might be ahead, so you could bet. With 2 or 3, it depends on a lot of things, you have to work out what works for you. If you are in late position, you might want to bet even against a large field, if they are passive, because it might get you a 'free' card on the turn, so you could see the river for 1 small bet, instead of 1 big bet. You also have to factor in the back door draws, the type of board you have, and your opponents style. Post some hands, this is a tricky part of playing poker, and it takes experience to get a feel for it.

Pre-flop raising does not seem to ever knock out a limper. If I’m on the button, there are five limpers and I raise, they all call. I almost never see it raised again, and I’ve never seen a pre-flop cap. Is this normal at these limits?


Yes, if it was right to limp, it is nearly always right to call a 1 bet raise. Your pot odds at that point have improved.

Is playing and winning this limit more a function of playing superior cards and betting when you hit a hand, bailing when you don’t?


Micro limit is showdown poker, it is all about getting value for your winners, and not giving it with your losers.

Do other players here find it difficult to get a read on people online?

Online is all about style of play. What do they limp with, what do they raise with, what betting patterns do they use. I feel like online, I am playing with information from the radio, and when I play live, it is like watching in a theater with sensaround. There is a lot more information available live, but almost all the information that is necessary is there in online poker.

On to your hand, with that large of a field, and top pair average kicker, I would have checked the flop, and hoped that the preflop raiser or another late position player bet. If I got a bet from late position, I would have then checkraised to try and make the field face a double bet on the flop.

If I check, and it gets bet and raised before it gets back to me, I would seriously consider mucking here preflop, because I may likely be facing a better kicker. If it was three bets back to me, I would definately muck on the flop.

[bernie]

many problems you may be having can be taken care of by reading the loose games section in HPFAP. there is a reason no one is folding to a single flop bet when the pot is big.

b

[JTG51]

Pre-flop raising does not seem to ever knock out a limper. If I’m on the button, there are five limpers and I raise, they all call.

Do you see players limp then fold to one raise often at other limits? I never do. I can't imagine that it could ever be correct to limp, then fold in a 5 way pot after the button raises.

I hear players complain about that all time after they get a big hand cracked from LP. "Can you believe he called a raise with 76s?" I always want to ask, "When was the last time you limped and folded for one raise preflop?" I'll bet the answer would almost always be "never".

Is playing and winning this limit more a function of playing superior cards and betting when you hit a hand, bailing when you don’t?

Yes. Isn't that the point at any limit though? Sure you should probably bluff less at low limits but playing the best cards and getting money in when you are ahead is the way you win at any poker game.

Do other players here find it difficult to get a read on people online? I find that in a B&M room I remember players and how they play much better than just remembering a name or a seat online.

I agree it's often easier to read players when you can actually see them. Most online sites allow you to save notes about players though. Take advantage of it, I think that's one of the biggest advantages to playing online.


As for the hand you posted, you can probably fold safely preflop. Calling raises with easily dominated hands out of position is a formula for trouble. Your large swings are probably due to those kinds of hands more than anything else.

[Rockfish]

Is playing and winning this limit more a function of playing superior cards and betting when you hit a hand, bailing when you don't?

Yes. Isn't that the point at any limit though? Sure you should probably bluff less at low limits but playing the best cards and getting money in when you are ahead is the way you win at any poker game.
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That's about it.

Did you see my thread a few days ago entitled "Taming the wild Ass-Monkey"? Not as well phrased as your thread here, but with a better title (insert smiley face of your choice here). Essentially addressing the same issue, but at the 1/2 game taking a shot at the 'big money'.

I have run into the same problem and what I think is that you have to treat most situations as if you're playing in a pot that was unraised pre-flop. This includes situations in which you raise pre-flop. If the one reasonably tight player raises pre-flop, you can narrow down the possible hands he has, but not the rest of the wild Ass-Monkeys.

I think it all goes back to the above quote from JTG51. Make the most of those you hit and dump when you don't. My play post-flop needs much improvement and I think when I lose big it's because I don't use the information I get from other people's actions. Perhaps the same is true for you as well. If you don't have the best hand or the best draw post-flop, get out. I often ignore this advice hoping that a) I'll improve, and/or; b) they're bluffing. I might. They're not. Calling is not a bluff.

Do you play on Paradise under the same name you use to post here? I think I've seen an ElSapo.

Rockfish

[oddjob]

if that 74s didn't hit on the river, you'd be ecstatic about them calling. that's the way things go. sometimes you get rundown, but you want hands like that to call you down and pay you off.

everyone gets beat by the crappy hands. it's just part of the game, but these are the ones that'll pay you off in the long run.

AK is a strong hand, and has been very profitable for me. there are just certain players that will see you down to the river, until they miss. so you have to keep betting these hands until someone lets you know differently.

good luck to you