OTB with overdefensive blinds

[jason_t]

Both blinds defend too much.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: I am Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, I call....

Cool?

[Trix]

Valueraise !

[Haupt_234]

Still a raise or fold situation IMO. The hand isn't that strong and isn't worth a limp in a 2-3 way pot, even if you do have position.

Haupt_234

[Emmitt2222]

How much is too much? That makes a big differnece because even if they only fold every once and awhile its still worth it to raise, or if they give up on the flop easily. If they are super loose then Sklansky talks about limping here as being OK, but I would want those blinds to have vpips over 70 each and both be passive so I know they are not raising and this is a very rare occassion. So maybe this was one of those special times, but otherwise I don't like it.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
How much is too much? That makes a big differnece because even if they only fold every once and awhile its still worth it to raise, or if they give up on the flop easily. If they are super loose then Sklansky talks about limping here as being OK, but I would want those blinds to have vpips over 70 each and both be passive so I know they are not raising and this is a very rare occassion. So maybe this was one of those special times, but otherwise I don't like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

In about two hours of play, I hadn't seen either of them fold their blinds in a steal situation and were calling in many non-steal sitautions. Both have VPIPs &gt; 60 and both were passive.

Where does Sklansky talk about limping here being okay?

[wackjob]

I agree with above. Raise or fold, don't be a weak fish. Personally, I'd raise every time.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
Both blinds defend too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with above. Raise or fold, don't be a weak fish. Personally, I'd raise every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is weak nor do I think it's fishy.

I do have a hand that will show a profit against these players; if I have an edge, it is small. Since I think they'll call a raise, by raising with little or no edge I just decrease my expectation by investing so much with a below average starting hand. By limping here, when I have a legitimate stealing hand later they may actually respect the attempt.

[jason_t]

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Both blinds defend too much.

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Fold.

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You don't think this hand or others like it will show a profit in this situation?

[Emmitt2222]

QTip had some big thread on this awhile ago in SS, limping with a small pp on the button I believe against loose blinds. He quoted Sklansky or Mason as saying there are situations where this is applicable, or at least thats what I remember.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Where does Sklansky talk about limping here being okay?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just happened to read that this morning. In HEPFAP "When the blinds are loose" he recommends limping with hands like A6o, 22, 98s (this one he said even from CO) when you know the blinds will fold less than 30% of the time. Your equity is probably no better than theirs so limp in and bet the flop if you're checked to.

Edit: Page 197

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

Your equity is probably no better than theirs so limp in and bet the flop if you're checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my plan. I could also flop a draw or a pair and they may respect a bet more in this scenario than in a steal scenario.

[sfer]

If they're passive I don't think it's so bad. But just for shits and giggles, try raising. You might like it.

[Justin A]

Perfect.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

Edit: Page 197

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
If they're passive I don't think it's so bad. But just for shits and giggles, try raising. You might like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? This almost seems me to be a scenario where not raising is more profitable (since I likely don't have a large preflop equity edge) and makes the hand easier to play since they are so tenacious in blind defense.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Valueraise !

[/ QUOTE ]

T8s, and other hands like it, doesn't have much of an equity edge if any at all, but it should show a profit being OTB against two passives.

[college_boy]

[ QUOTE ]
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If they're passive I don't think it's so bad. But just for shits and giggles, try raising. You might like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? This almost seems me to be a scenario where not raising is more profitable (since I likely don't have a large preflop equity edge) and makes the hand easier to play since they are so tenacious in blind defense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Free card

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
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If they're passive I don't think it's so bad. But just for shits and giggles, try raising. You might like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? This almost seems me to be a scenario where not raising is more profitable (since I likely don't have a large preflop equity edge) and makes the hand easier to play since they are so tenacious in blind defense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Free card

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that I'm going to flop a draw or even overcards often enough to make investing an extra sb worth it. I might get it anyway on the flop since they're passive.

[deception5]

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Free card

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You're paying the same price for it preflop...

[sfer]

Because you don't want to get raised preflop.

[spydog]

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Both blinds defend too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think this hand or others like it will show a profit in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a borderline hand like this needs a reasonable chance of stealing the blinds to be profitable. However, it's not like this is going to be a huge money loser for you if you openlimp or openraise, though.

[college_boy]

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Free card

[/ QUOTE ]

You're paying the same price for it preflop...

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I didn't get the part that there was a 0% chance of them folding pf. If that's the case then limping is better than raising.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Because you don't want to get raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
Valueraise !

[/ QUOTE ]

A vehement no from me to raising. A strong yes on calling. Read "when the blinds are very loose" in the heads-up and short handed section of HEPFAP. T8s I think is a PERFECT example of when open calling is probably best at least from a theoretical standpoint. I am a lonely voice in advocating this, but I think the data really does support it.

I would not advocate doing this if 1.) it was not folded to you OTB, AND 2.) the blinds did not defend so much as to make it noteworthy that they over-defended, AND 3.) you held a hand with some modicum of showdown value unimproved such as A6, 33, or K8s. However, it was folded to you, the blinds are super loose, and you have good EV but poor showdown value. Open call and evaluate from the flop -- you may want to bet when checked to as a general rule following open-calls OTB.

[MisterKing]

Here's the other thing -- against a thinking opponent who you see quite often at the same tables (e.g. a fellow 2+2er, perhaps), you may want to ever so occasionally open limp a bigger hand like AA on the button for cover. If the opponent sees that you only open limp hands like T8s, even though that may be the right thing to do, he can steal on you by frequently raising PF/donkbetting flops when you openlimp OTB. Think about shania, etc.

Against everyone else, there is no reason to make this cover play, since they're not taking notes or paying attention.

[Trix]

Are the blinds loose and overdefensive when the 2+2er if there or is he just stupid ?

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
T8s I think is a PERFECT example of when open calling is probably best at least from a theoretical standpoint

[/ QUOTE ]
What theory is it you refer to ?

[ QUOTE ]
I am a lonely voice in advocating this, but I think the data really does support it.


[/ QUOTE ]
What data?

[VBM]

just my opinion, but this isn't enough info for me.

OOP, can they find a fold postflop? what type of hands will they fold? will they call down with any piece?

Can you find a fold? Under what circumstances? Say both blinds call and the flop is Txx/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and the action goes bet/raise...?
Is a continuation bet coming on any flop? if not, what is the least hand you're willing to bet with?

Are either blinds capable of a bluff-betting or CR'ing a flopped A vs you, i.e. what is your image?

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
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T8s I think is a PERFECT example of when open calling is probably best at least from a theoretical standpoint

[/ QUOTE ]
What theory is it you refer to ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've cited the source: Sklansky's HEPFAP commentary on "when the blinds are very loose" in the Heads Up/Shorthanded section of the book. To go a little further, he said you'd never normally make this "tourist" play, but it is best in an EV sense in some limited cases when the blinds basically never fold. The open call line maximizes your ability to extract money postflop in position with a marginal hand like A3o or T8s, while commiting the minimum necessary pre-flop. I'd quote more of the section now, but I'm at work and don't have access to my book. Implied odds are a big part of it.

[ QUOTE ]
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I am a lonely voice in advocating this, but I think the data really does support it.


[/ QUOTE ]
What data?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Data" was the wrong term for me to use. I have not run sims on this, but I presume there is a solid mathematical underpinning to what Sklansky said in the section I mention above. I would like to run some TTH sims, but I need to TTH first in order to do so. Its not that I just blindly trust Sklansky here... its that the whole notion of implied odds against outright loose calling stations is very sensible given the games I play in. The "value" in open value raising T8s OTB vs blinds that won't fold is much smaller than the value I get by saving 1 SB and then pumping when I do hit (or when I know they've missed and may fold).

I just want to win the most $$ -- and I'm not afraid to do unpopular or un-TAG or whatever kinds of things like open calling OTB to do it. Raising for the sake of aggression alone is stupid - not that you (Trix) have advocated this, but others have (they say "but, but, but, we need to be tight and aggressive! Calling is not aggressive therefore we can't do it here! We need to be aggressive so our numbers look sexy!" and its all nonsense in this special case).

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
just my opinion, but this isn't enough info for me.

OOP, can they find a fold postflop? what type of hands will they fold? will they call down with any piece?

Can you find a fold? Under what circumstances? Say both blinds call and the flop is Txx/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and the action goes bet/raise...?
Is a continuation bet coming on any flop? if not, what is the least hand you're willing to bet with?

Are either blinds capable of a bluff-betting or CR'ing a flopped A vs you, i.e. what is your image?

[/ QUOTE ]

These are definite considerations above and beyond what the tendencies of the blinds happen to be. If your image is ruined, raising is especially bad. If it is dominant and you've shown down monsters lately, by all means raise! Will they fold the turn if they whiff again? If so, raise it PF and bet the flop.

My advice of open-calling is to get the best value out of true calling stations: guys who will almost never fold PF and will basically never fold w/any piece of the board postflop. Open raising T8s OTB versus those guys is nothing short of a money-losing mistake. Not a huge one, but a mistake nonetheless.

[sfer]

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Because you don't want to get raised preflop.

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/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You limp, SB completes, BB raises. That sucks. Got it?

[jason_t]

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Because you don't want to get raised preflop.

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/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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You limp, SB completes, BB raises. That sucks. Got it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise, SB cold calls, BB 3-bets. That sucks.

[sfer]

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Because you don't want to get raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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You limp, SB completes, BB raises. That sucks. Got it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise, SB cold calls, BB 3-bets. That sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. That's why I said it's fine if they're passive. See?

[MisterKing]

Makes sense to me, but what about keeping the pot small until we see a flop versus the loose-aggressive opponents? Isn't it much better to see a flop with 3 to 6SB in there (meaning you open call and call a raise if necessary) than it is to see a flop with 7 to 9SB in there? If you hit a nice flop, you'd like to hang the aggro opponent with his own aggression and have him continue betting into you -- since by FTOP his doing so in a small pot would be wrong. His continued betting may not be nearly as wrong if there are 8 or 9 SB in the pot on the flop.

The part about it being ok when they're loose-passive makes total sense to me. But I don't see why this doesn't also apply to loose-aggressive types.

[Mig]

I believe it's good to limp marginal hands vs that specific type of players. If you bet, they will call no matter what they have. The pot will be biggger 3way pot. They will be "involved" in the pot and will try harder to win it. I think it is correct and more profitable to "over" limp vs them because very often the pot will be kept very small and they will be less intersted to call the flop with no pair with such a tiny pot and they will give up more often. But if you do that often, you will have to limp big hands too...

[tablecop]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
T8s I think is a PERFECT example of when open calling is probably best at least from a theoretical standpoint

[/ QUOTE ]
What theory is it you refer to ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've cited the source: Sklansky's HEPFAP commentary on "when the blinds are very loose" in the Heads Up/Shorthanded section of the book. To go a little further, he said you'd never normally make this "tourist" play, but it is best in an EV sense in some limited cases when the blinds basically never fold. The open call line maximizes your ability to extract money postflop in position with a marginal hand like A3o or T8s, while commiting the minimum necessary pre-flop. I'd quote more of the section now, but I'm at work and don't have access to my book. Implied odds are a big part of it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am a lonely voice in advocating this, but I think the data really does support it.


[/ QUOTE ]
What data?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Data" was the wrong term for me to use. I have not run sims on this, but I presume there is a solid mathematical underpinning to what Sklansky said in the section I mention above. I would like to run some TTH sims, but I need to TTH first in order to do so. Its not that I just blindly trust Sklansky here... its that the whole notion of implied odds against outright loose calling stations is very sensible given the games I play in. The "value" in open value raising T8s OTB vs blinds that won't fold is much smaller than the value I get by saving 1 SB and then pumping when I do hit (or when I know they've missed and may fold).

I just want to win the most $$ -- and I'm not afraid to do unpopular or un-TAG or whatever kinds of things like open calling OTB to do it. Raising for the sake of aggression alone is stupid - not that you (Trix) have advocated this, but others have (they say "but, but, but, we need to be tight and aggressive! Calling is not aggressive therefore we can't do it here! We need to be aggressive so our numbers look sexy!" and its all nonsense in this special case).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what trix is trying to say is just because Sklansky wrote it down doesn't lift it to status of theory. last time i checked my DB the average 6 maxer (5/T) defended his BB vs a steal ~75% of the time. and i think in the universe Skalansky was hypothosizing about the players were a bit brighter postflop compared to the ones populating our universe.

[CallMeIshmael]

FWIW, PJN referenced this post in #sstakes, and this was part of the discussion:

&lt;Trixx&gt; dont remind me of that
&lt;CallMeIsh&gt; raise
&lt;kurosh&gt; i literally just read through hefap an hour ago and it says to limp that [censored] when the blinds are very loose
&lt;CallMeIsh&gt; it said to limp A3o and 22
&lt;CallMeIsh&gt; those hands are a million miles away
&lt;CallMeIsh&gt; from T8s in how they play
&lt;Trixx&gt; T8s is too good imo
&lt;CallMeIsh&gt; true
&lt;CallMeIsh&gt; and
&lt;CallMeIsh&gt; if you think about it
&lt;CallMeIsh&gt; hands like A3 and 22
&lt;CallMeIsh&gt; tend to be the best on the flop
&lt;CallMeIsh&gt; but are hard to play
&lt;CallMeIsh&gt; because
&lt;CallMeIsh&gt; you cant fold a lot of worse hands, and better hands are normally calling
&lt;Trixx&gt; they bad for reverse implied odds
&lt;CallMeIsh&gt; exactly
&lt;CallMeIsh&gt; and T8s is the opposite
&lt;Trixx&gt; tbh, i dont hate a limp with A2 if they literally defend every time

[sfer]

BTW, GoT had a similar near-button/button openlimp hand a little while back in Mid/High, I think.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
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Because you don't want to get raised preflop.

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/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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You limp, SB completes, BB raises. That sucks. Got it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise, SB cold calls, BB 3-bets. That sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. That's why I said it's fine if they're passive. See?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I already understand that.

It was

[ QUOTE ]
But just for shits and giggles, try raising. You might like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

that confused me.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
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Because you don't want to get raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You limp, SB completes, BB raises. That sucks. Got it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise, SB cold calls, BB 3-bets. That sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. That's why I said it's fine if they're passive. See?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I already understand that.

It was

[ QUOTE ]
But just for shits and giggles, try raising. You might like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

that confused me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're playing 3/6. Short, no less. You're liking it. I'm sure it made you uncomfortable at the start, though. I think getting a little uncomfortable is good for you, specifically.

[TheMetetron]

I like it. With the reads you have here.

[cmwck]

I'd like to add that this concept of limping OTB is also discussed in Inside the Poker Mind by John Feeney.

page 21-23: Bad Plays Good Players Make

4. Trying, with garbage hands, to steal the blinds of ... mediocre, tenacious callers.

"When you try with very weak hands to steal the blind of a mediocre player who will almost always defend, the situation is very different. The problem here is that unless he plays very badly after the flop, such that your edge on him is then quite pronounced, you are lowering your overall expectation by investing two bets in your below average starting hands. You would be better off simply limping with some of the weaker hands that you deem strong enough to play against [them].*

*Footnote: These are basically hands like Q5s or T8s - hands that will usually not flop anything but ought to make decent money against poor players when they do."

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to add that this concept of limping OTB is also discussed in Inside the Poker Mind by John Feeney.

page 21-23: Bad Plays Good Players Make

4. Trying, with garbage hands, to steal the blinds of ... mediocre, tenacious callers.

"When you try with very weak hands to steal the blind of a mediocre player who will almost always defend, the situation is very different. The problem here is that unless he plays very badly after the flop, such that your edge on him is then quite pronounced, you are lowering your overall expectation by investing two bets in your below average starting hands. You would be better off simply limping with some of the weaker hands that you deem strong enough to play against [them].*

*Footnote: These are basically hands like Q5s or T8s - hands that will usually not flop anything but ought to make decent money against poor players when they do."

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. That's awesome.

However, I would neither limp nor steal here with Q5s. Is that bad?

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to add that this concept of limping OTB is also discussed in Inside the Poker Mind by John Feeney.

page 21-23: Bad Plays Good Players Make

4. Trying, with garbage hands, to steal the blinds of ... mediocre, tenacious callers.

"When you try with very weak hands to steal the blind of a mediocre player who will almost always defend, the situation is very different. The problem here is that unless he plays very badly after the flop, such that your edge on him is then quite pronounced, you are lowering your overall expectation by investing two bets in your below average starting hands. You would be better off simply limping with some of the weaker hands that you deem strong enough to play against [them].*

*Footnote: These are basically hands like Q5s or T8s - hands that will usually not flop anything but ought to make decent money against poor players when they do."

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. That's awesome.

However, I would neither limp nor steal here with Q5s. Is that bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is awesome -- he put it 10000x better than I could, and of course &lt;1% of my thinking was original, rest came str8 outta HEPFAP. The idea of "tenacious callers" is exactly what I was trying to explain. Anyhow, re: Q5s, I'm not open limping it either. My cutoffs for the open limp, versus "tenacious callers" that are not particularly aggressive are as follows (note that it is a very narrow range):

22
A2o-A4o, A2s
K6o-K7o, K2s-K6s
Q7o-Q9o, Q7s-Q8s
J9o (??), J7s-J8s
T9o, T7s (??)-T9s
98s


I feel like that range is very ad hoc, but its what I got. I want to go and buy TTH so I can run some sims to really figure out what the deal is here.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

22
A2o-A4o, A2s
K6o-K7o, K2s-K6s
Q7o-Q9o, Q7s-Q8s
J9o (??), J7s-J8s
T9o, T7s (??)-T9s
98s

[/ QUOTE ]

That range seems along the lines of what I was thinking.