Stupid PF Question #570

[DavidC]

10 handed game, it's playing very tight, but there's a maniac to your direct (Edit: right), so you're sticking around.

It's folded to a TAA in MP1 who raises.

Maniac folds, you're in MP3, the blinds are tight, and you have 99.

Do you re-raise?

(by TAA I mean something like 22-9-1.5)

[shant]

I think you mean the maniacs on your right.

Anyway, yes, 3-bet.

[tyler_cracker]

Yes. You have position, you're likely to isolate and buy the button, and the hand should be pretty easy to play after your 3-bet.

[DeeJ]

Who do the purple people represent (not the publishing red ones or the moderating green ones?)

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
Who do the purple people represent (not the publishing red ones or the moderating green ones?)

[/ QUOTE ]

People who go home and [censored] the prom queen.

To OP: 3-bet.

[oreogod]

Deej...heres why he gone purple.

Shants vic (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3132740&page=2&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[Trix]

77 is closer.

[einbert]

Yes easy three-bet.

[thejameser]

especially with position on raiser, i will usually 3bet 99(like 99% of the time). and 88 88% and 77 77%, but TT gets tricky, b/c i do it 100% of the time 10 times and then 10 % once.

[rryjew]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. You have position, you're likely to isolate and buy the button, and the hand should be pretty easy to play after your 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I often have problems with this type of hand, so I guess I'm looking for a little more info. Say I 3-bet here and successfully buy the button.

How do you play a flop with one or more overcards and villian bets?

No overcards and villian bets?

One or more overcards and villian check raises?

Finally, no overcards villian check raises?

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
3bet 99(like 99% of the time)....but TT gets tricky, b/c i do it 100% of the time 10 times and then 10 % once.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, three-bet 99, 99% of the time, but three-bet TT 90% of the time?

Jees, that's lame.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Edit: And thanks guys, the responses have supported what I chose to do at the time, but this is actually a very unusual play for me currently. I'm getting into stuff like thsi with 99 and AQo, but only when it looks like isolation will work...

--Dave.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you play a flop with one or more overcards and villian bets?

[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on what overcard it is and how many there are. Folding or raising, folding more.

[ QUOTE ]
No overcards and villian bets?

[/ QUOTE ]
Raise.

[ QUOTE ]
One or more overcards and villian check raises?

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, depends on the overcards and how many.

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, no overcards villian check raises?

[/ QUOTE ]
3-bet.

[DavidC]

I'm going to imagine that villain calls the three-bet, and that I have no idea about what the board contains other than what you've just told me.

I'm also going to give you default plays.

Therefore I'll often be wrong, but I think this is a reasonable starting point (but it still won't be much help).

[ QUOTE ]

Ok, I often have problems with this type of hand, so I guess I'm looking for a little more info. Say I 3-bet here and successfully buy the button.

How do you play a flop with one or more overcards and villian bets?


[/ QUOTE ]

Punch yourself in the nuts if it's two overcards, and fold. Step one of this play is vital.

If it's one overcard, play it the same as no overcards.

[ QUOTE ]


No overcards and villian bets?


[/ QUOTE ]

Raise, bet the turn, take a free showdown.

[ QUOTE ]


One or more overcards and villian check raises?


[/ QUOTE ]

Call, fold the turn unimproved.

[ QUOTE ]

Finally, no overcards villian check raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

Three-bet, bet the turn, take a free showdown.

----------

Don't do any of these plays all the time. Taylor them to the board, the opponent, your opponents feelings, and your image.

For example, if this guy's called the river with ace-high once or twice in the past (luckily party lets you see this), bet the river sometimes too.

[shant]

If the board is all undercards on the river and your opponent hasn't done anything but call since the flop I'm value-betting.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
If the board is all undercards on the river and your opponent hasn't done anything but call since the flop I'm value-betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool.

Nice location, by the way! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[brazilio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3bet 99(like 99% of the time)....but TT gets tricky, b/c i do it 100% of the time 10 times and then 10 % once.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, three-bet 99, 99% of the time, but three-bet TT 90% of the time?

Jees, that's lame.


[/ QUOTE ]

ps, 90.91% of the time.

[thejameser]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3bet 99(like 99% of the time)....but TT gets tricky, b/c i do it 100% of the time 10 times and then 10 % once.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, three-bet 99, 99% of the time, but three-bet TT 90% of the time?

Jees, that's lame.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Edit: And thanks guys, the responses have supported what I chose to do at the time, but this is actually a very unusual play for me currently. I'm getting into stuff like thsi with 99 and AQo, but only when it looks like isolation will work...

--Dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, with TT you 3 bet 100% of the time 10 times and 10% of the time one time.

[weevil]

[ QUOTE ]
10 handed game, it's playing very tight, but there's a maniac to your direct (Edit: right), so you're sticking around.

It's folded to a TAA in MP1 who raises.

Maniac folds, you're in MP3, the blinds are tight, and you have 99.

Do you re-raise?

(by TAA I mean something like 22-9-1.5)

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm. I don't know why people are so universal about this, but from the sound of it, this is a fairly reasonable player, which means he's probably not raising light up front. A decent hand range for him is TT+,AJs+,KQs,AQo+, and that's on the loose side I think. Playing AQ and 99 for a 3bet to try and isolate yield almost exactly the same equity PF, but AQ fairs a little better if there's a good chance someone else comes along.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 39.0207 % 38.82% 00.20% { 99 }
Hand 2: 60.9793 % 60.78% 00.20% { TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }

You're clearly an underdog to almost all of his holdings, and slightly ahead of several. The chance that you don't successfully isolate seems to make this a fold. Why bother investing 3 small bets PF in a less than marginal situation?

Now if you and maniac were on the button and CO, and a similar opponent opens from LMP, it's a clear 3bet, since you have only the blinds acting, and the range of hands from the opener is larger.

Which is just to say, that given your scenario, I'm pretty sure you're not losing any value by not playing the hand, and the 3bet scenario is either very slightly positive EV to marginally -EV.

[weevil]

If you take away the chance of flopping a set, your equity is like 26% to 73%. Again, you'll just be in a super marginal situation on a lot of flops, either being very slightly ahead, but unable to fold out AK/AQ, either of which could have also picked up a flush draw, or way behind to a higher pair. For example, given one overcard and a flush draw, your equity is:
Board: 7c Jd 4d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 43.3517 % 43.35% 00.00% { 99 }
Hand 2: 56.6483 % 56.65% 00.00% { TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }

and given no over cards,


Board: 7c 4d 8d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 46.9170 % 46.92% 00.00% { 99 }
Hand 2: 53.0830 % 53.08% 00.00% { TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }

So you don't even really know what a good flop would be for you, almost all of villains holdings are going to be well ahead of you, or just slightly ahead. You do have position, and if the opponenet is predictable and you're able to capitalize on your reads of him, then this play isn't bad, and is probably called for if opponent will go to river unimproved often with AK/AQ. I just think that most small stakes players are going to lose a decent amount over the long run in similar situations.

[TheHammer24]

[ QUOTE ]
A decent hand range for him is TT+,AJs+,KQs,AQo+, and that's on the loose side I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think in a tight with pfr% of 9 you can add a lot more hands than that. 77, 88, KJo+, ATo+. even 22+ and A9s are not out of the question. Plus you can win/save extra bets via superior position.

[Greg J]

I might be missing something on this thread, but there are some posters I respect saying some things I think are... well a little maniacal. 3 betting 99 preflop against a tight preflop aggressor?

What are the range of hands he raises? ATs+, AJo+, KJs+ (maybe as low as QJs). Against this hero is a slight favorite if hands are seen to the river. What else? 99+. Here hero is in trouble.

Caveate: The presence of a maniac might change the dynamic, but it might not. Now, and can understand the logic if Mr TAA villian is actively using the Maniac to his left to isolate the table, allowing him to do the 3 betting for him. If he has been seen to do that, then I can see a 3 bet here as more feasible. But often TAAs won't do that, as they are likely to be multitabling and not have as close of a read. Or, just as likely, they just won't think to do it, or be too scared. If responses here are predicated on the assumption that villian is using maniac in this manner, I think this might be assuming too much.

I might be missing something, but I'm not getting the 3 bet. It seems like spewing.

[weevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A decent hand range for him is TT+,AJs+,KQs,AQo+, and that's on the loose side I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think in a tight with pfr% of 9 you can add a lot more hands than that. 77, 88, KJo+, ATo+. even 22+ and A9s are not out of the question. Plus you can win/save extra bets via superior position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless this guy is a wacky n00b, he's not raising any of those from that position, especially given the current table description. If maniac was doing a lot of raising and 3betting PF, I could see raising maybe 88, so that maniac threebet and self isolated himself. But that's a pretty expert play, which I wouldn't tend to credit most with /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 39.0207 % 38.82% 00.20% { 99 }
Hand 2: 60.9793 % 60.78% 00.20% { TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }


[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1: 49.3938 % [ 00.49 00.01 ] { 9h9d }
Hand 2: 50.6062 % [ 00.50 00.01 ] { AA-77, AKs-A8s, KQs, AKo-ATo, KQo }


This is something more like what I had in mind. However, I'd have to be playing against a pretty good player to see that range of raising hands from MP1 on a tight table.

I think someone of our Brand Name guys would add some hands like QJs, JTs, etc.


I'll read the rest of the post soon, I have to head out.

Thanks for the response, though. Interesting stuff.