2 bubble hands

[45suited]

This was the 2nd time in a row that SB open pushed into me when he had the chance. I was very tempted to call (1.86:1 odds). I knew I was getting a great price, but figured if I folded, I still had FE on the guy on my left. SB had just enough chips to make me hestitant to call. Who calls here?

Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 9: TOMMYTBONE7 ( $1373 )
Seat 10: gnumsplo1tz ( $665 )
Seat 6: HERO ( $1135 )
Seat 7: SwHiFi ( $1225 )
Seat 8: bigdaddykdp ( $3602 )

Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Jd 7s ]
SwHiFi folds.
bigdaddykdp folds.
TOMMYTBONE7 folds.
gnumsplo1tz is all-In [565]
Your time bank will become active in less than 20 seconds. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.
HERO will be using his time bank for this hand.
HERO folds.
gnumsplo1tz does not show cards.
gnumsplo1tz wins 865 chips

I seem to advocate a little more patience on the bubble than alot of players. Stuff like this (3 hands later) is why:

Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 9: TOMMYTBONE7 ( $1373 )
Seat 6: HERO ( $835 )
Seat 7: SwHiFi ( $925 )
Seat 8: bigdaddykdp ( $4867 )

Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ 2s Ah ]
HERO folds.
SwHiFi calls [200].
bigdaddykdp calls [100].
TOMMYTBONE7 is all-In [1173]
SwHiFi is all-In [725]
bigdaddykdp folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9s, 5d, 6c ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ts ]
TOMMYTBONE7 shows [ Td, Ac ] two pairs, tens and sixes.
SwHiFi shows [ 2h, 2d ] two pairs, sixes and twos.
TOMMYTBONE7 wins 448 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, tens and sixes.
TOMMYTBONE7 wins 2050 chips from the main pot with two pairs, tens and sixes.
SwHiFi finished in fourth place. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif
SwHiFi has left the table.

I'm interested in the first hand though. I had no reason to put the SB on anything other than any two, but I chose to forego the pot odds in favor of keeping my FE against the guy to my left. Calling and losing would have crippled me, but I was truly torn. It sure felt like a wuss fold. Who would've called?

Edit: Before I get any replies, after thinking about the hand, I believe that I should have called. Meh.

[ilya]

Try putting his range on "any 2" and running SGNPT. Then, change your "call & lose" equity to zero. Is calling still profitable? I think it was ChrisV who taught me this trick.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Try putting his range on "any 2" and running SGNPT. Then, change your "call & lose" equity to zero. Is calling still profitable? I think it was ChrisV who taught me this trick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without checking yet, I take it that your gut tells you that it was a good fold? Thanks for the advice either way. Sounds like a good way to go about attacking the problem.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm interested in the first hand though. I had no reason to put the SB on anything other than any two, but I chose to forego the pot odds in favor of keeping my FE against the guy to my left. Calling and losing would have crippled me, but I was truly torn. It sure felt like a wuss fold. Who would've called?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1 is a bad fold imo. You're getting good odds, and it only costs you 365 chips, so you're not totally crippled if you lose. If he's pushing any 2, you should call. You still have big stack in the BB when you're the button, so pushing isn't going to be that great either with a subpar hand. And, how is big stack playing? If he's raising or limping every hand, you're not going to get a chance to push from the SB, so conserving FE isn't that big of an edge. I take the pot odds and call here.

[45suited]

Isura, it's actually costing me 465 to call. I'd be down to 470 if I call and lose. Does that change anything for you?

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
I seem to advocate a little more patience on the bubble than alot of players. Stuff like this (3 hands later) is why:


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, you basically killed any solid chances of finishing in the real money, but HEY, you squeaked into 3rd place! High Five!

I'm kidding, kinda. You're getting over 2:1 on your call. Call this in a flash. Yes, sometimes you'll bust out, but those chips will be powerful if you want to finish first in the tourney.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
Isura, it's actually costing me 465 to call. I'd be down to 470 if I call and lose. Does that change anything for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is he all in for 565 total or 565 more? That could change things.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
You're getting over 2:1 on your call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I agree that I should have called, but I was getting under 2:1 (1.86:1 to be exact). I thought it was close, and at a higher buy-in, I'm pretty sure I would have called. But sometimes at 11s or 22s, if the decision is very close, I tend to err on the side of sticking around and letting my opponents implode. At a 33, I'd call in a flash.

[37offsuit]

Opponent started the hand with 665, posted the small blind of 100, raised 565 to 665, I'm guessing. 465 to call into a pot of 1330.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Is he all in for 565 total or 565 more? That could change things.

[/ QUOTE ]

He had 665 before posting the SB of 100, so he pushed for a total of 665, making it 465 for me to call.

865 in the pot, 465 for me to call. Again, I know I've got the pot odds, I was weighing two factors: 1) the loss of FE by losing the hand and 2) the stupidity of my opponents, who often can be counted on to make a terrible mistake if I stay patient. For example, if I call and lose this hand, the guy with 22 three hands later probably just folds pre-flop because I would be crippled and he would try to fold ITM. I don't think he would have busted out if I was sitting there with t470. That played into my thinking somewhat in what I viewed as a close decision.

It could have gone either way and I'm not trying to justify my fold. As I said, I think I should have called, but do you guys think it was at least a close decision?

[kyro]

It's a lot closer than I thought. For some reason I thought he went all-in for 565 total and you had to were getting 765/365 on your call. So it's 865/465? Still close enough to 2:1. I still call here.

[junkmail3]

I thought I was still reading the archives for a while, and had forgotten that I wanted to see if anything was new here in the past 30 min.

I don't know why so many people are advocating a call here and talking about playing for first.

J7o is trash, and even though he's pushing any two, you're never a huge favorite in this spot.

And we all know that ICM can be wrong/misapplied at times, and I think this is one of those spots.

If you fold here, you're in fine shape being able to push a lot of hands into the BB or from the button, and have a great chance to pick up your blinds again. (you're still even with about 4/5 stacks)

However, if you call and lose, you have to first double up before you have a chance to start fighting for position AGAIN.

I don't like the thought of coming out of this 50% of the time in the worst position at the table, where it is very likely you'll finish OOTM. And the other 50% of the time you don't even have the small stacks outstacked by 2x.

This just seems like a very bad place to take a gamble.

I could be wrong, but this looks like a horrible spot to call.

[schwza]

i think the fold was good. you're crippling yourself if you lose, and you're 50%+ to lose even if he does have any 2.

[kyro]

Bleh, I think you're right junkmail. I got really wrapped up in the >2:1 camp, and I'm incredibly rusty right now. (Have played <20 tourneys this month). Pure pot odds, I think it's a call, but I will concede that the awkward chip stacks roll it over to the fold side for me.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

I hate to call in the bubble, b/c I usually lose. How do you know if he is pushing any two, unless he has been busted by someone or he is pushing frequently... but frequent pushes could mean strong hands too. People seem to love calling me in the bubble... I don't know. Is there a range of hands that are strong enough to be considered auto call (assuming player is not tight). What if he has more chips than you... does that change the range of hands that you call with?

Perhaps this will give you some peace of mind. I also find these situations difficult, on the calling end, where losing the hand leaves you crippled. From my seat, I was just trying to pick up some chips before the blinds swallowed up what little (if any) was left of my own FE. Good to see a 2+2er at the tables though.

And thank you. Seeing this thread made me stop lurking and break my posting cherry, so to speak.

Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 6: Villain ( $1135 )
Seat 7: SwHiFi ( $1225 )
Seat 8: bigdaddykdp ( $3602 )
Seat 9: TOMMYTBONE7 ( $1373 )
Seat 10: HERO ( $665 )

Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ 8d Td ]
SwHiFi folds.
bigdaddykdp folds.
TOMMYTBONE7 folds.
HERO is all-In [565]
Villain will be using his time bank for this hand.
Villain folds.
HERO does not show cards.
HERO wins 865 chips

[bennies]

whatcha gonna do with the money?

I think the fold here with A2o is generally bad. My Icm says it's breakeven - but it's an older version and doesn't count the fact that the blinds hit me next hand (obviously Swhifi didn't consider this either...).

[curtains]

I dunno the buyin, but my normal play in these hands is to call hand 1 and move allin hand 2.

[tigerite]

Yeah I'd do the same, though hand 1 is close.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps this will give you some peace of mind. I also find these situations difficult, on the calling end, where losing the hand leaves you crippled. From my seat, I was just trying to pick up some chips before the blinds swallowed up what little (if any) was left of my own FE. Good to see a 2+2er at the tables though.

And thank you. Seeing this thread made me stop lurking and break my posting cherry, so to speak.

Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 6: Villain ( $1135 )
Seat 7: SwHiFi ( $1225 )
Seat 8: bigdaddykdp ( $3602 )
Seat 9: TOMMYTBONE7 ( $1373 )
Seat 10: HERO ( $665 )

Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ 8d Td ]
SwHiFi folds.
bigdaddykdp folds.
TOMMYTBONE7 folds.
HERO is all-In [565]
Villain will be using his time bank for this hand.
Villain folds.
HERO does not show cards.
HERO wins 865 chips

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha! I had a feeling that you might have been one of us. At the very least, I could tell that you knew what you were doing, which is why I knew that you'd be pushing as soon as it was folded to you. The decision was SO close... as I said earlier, if it had been a 30+3, I would have called in a snap. One problem that I have with ICM (among many, actually) is that it seems to undervalue the concept of surviving and letting someone else blow up (which has a lot of merit at the 22s and below if the decision is close).

I'm glad to see that my read was correct, but I'm still not sure if my play was smart or just chicken! (Maybe a little of both...) It was honestly so close that I could have flipped a coin on calling or not. For a 2+2er, I'm actually more apt to make calls like this than most.

Anyway, let's avoid each other at the tables now!!! If I do see you, I'm sitting to your right next time. GG /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, let's avoid each other at the tables now!!! If I do see you, I'm sitting to your right next time. GG /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha, fair enough. I checked PT last night and that's the only time we've run into each other so far.

[microbet]

Why do you set your call & lose equity to zero? It isn't.