AK doesn't hit...

[PSW]

I tend to have trouble w/ AK, AQ when they don't hit... Here it goes...

Button is 45/9/1.2 but winning 17 BB/100 winning w/ K9s from EP w/ 88 hands on him.

BB is an unknown.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Time to checkfold the turn?

River: (11 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, BB calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13 BB

This board isn't ragged enough, IMHO, to call the flop bet much less raise it. I would have folded here.

I have this same problem and feel like I'm losing too much with AK, AQ, AJ, and possibly QK when they're overcards to the flop. It's not so much that I call bets (if someone bets before me, I usually fold), but when checked to me I bet and often check/raise it on the flop. I then usually bet the turn if another non-scary card falls, and tend to just lose out on the river when I don't make the hand. Any advice? Or is this just a matter of knowing when to lay it down?

I don't mean to try and steal your post, PSW. I just have a similar problem and thought I'd add to it.

- thing85 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
This board isn't ragged enough, IMHO, to call the flop bet much less raise it. I would have folded here.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is too weak.

[lerxst337]

I think the flop reraise is mandatory, but when you have 2 cold callers after you to make 4 going to the turn, I think it's time to shut down. Also, consider that your ace is probably only worth 2 outs, maybe less, since you will be 2 paired often.

I think I differ with some people here, so I need to keep reading (clearly!!!), but I actually try to get myself to shut down SOONER. In a hand like this, we have no backdoor draw, our ace might make someone 2 pair, and we just aren't going to fold 3 other people. To put it another way, there are 4BB's in the pot on the flop. If we raise the flop and bet the turn, it costs us 2 BBs to try to take down the pot. The aces are tainted, A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif are tainted. It just seems to be that there are better places to try to steal/win unimproved.

[JerseyTom]

Preflop and flop are OK. I like raising the flop to get a free card and also to push out button and SB.

Turn: A bet here has absolutely no value at all. Button and SB didn't fold the flop getting 5.5:1 and 6.5:1 respectively. There's no way that 3 scares them now that they're getting 9:1 (in fact, it helped a hand like A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif). Check fold the turn; you're drawing to only 4 clean outs and you might be reverse dominated.


Tom

[cold_cash]

I don't mind the flop play since the pot's pretty big.

I think it's okay to try and get the button and maybe a free turn card. Plus you might fold a small pair behind you.

I think your turn bet into 3 opponents is bad, however.

[JacksonTens]

Overcards are a weak draw and should be played as such. Obviously there was no way you should fold on the flop, and the only reason to raise was to eliminate players, semibluff (although I doubt it with such a large field)increasing your chance to win and also getting yourself a free card. Unfortunately it didn't work. The turn bet however, was a plain semibluff, with far too many players to make it feasible. Oh well, next time.

JT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[hobbsmann]

I don't like your flop raise here. You are rarely ahead and you are not going to get anbody to fold any hands that you are losing to here and anybody with a flush draw isn't going anywhere. The best line in this hand would probably be to call the flop and fold the turn UI if BB continues to fire.

I retract my answer.

After reviewing SSHE (page 231), this seems like a similiar hand.

"His bet is not likely to indicate a strong hand..."

"The pot is large, your overcards are relatively strong..."

"Raising is better than calling, because it improves your winning chances..."

[pokahjokah]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like your flop raise here. You are rarely ahead and you are not going to get anbody to fold any hands that you are losing to here and anybody with a flush draw isn't going anywhere. The best line in this hand would probably be to call the flop and fold the turn UI if BB continues to fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think he could get mid/low pairs here to fold (22, 33, 55, 77) ? Often times in low limit people bet their draws. If he can get heads up with flush drawer (BB) that leads the flop, then this is a good play. I am not saying 100% BB is drawing, but it isn't unlikely either. And, for 2 bets more, he may get a straight draw to fold on the flop.

[thesharpie]

[ QUOTE ]
I retract my answer.

After reviewing SSHE (page 231), this seems like a similiar hand.

"His bet is not likely to indicate a strong hand..."

"The pot is large, your overcards are relatively strong..."

"Raising is better than calling, because it improves your winning chances..."

[/ QUOTE ]

In the SSH example villain was a thinking aggressive player, this villain is unknown. Against an average unknown this bet is likely to indicate a hand you're drawing against, in the example you're more likely to have the villain beat.

I would prefer this play on the button since we're likely to get a free card, I'm not convinved on the flop raise with a loose and fairly aggressive button in the hand.

Call me weak but I ditch it on the flop giving us 3.5 outs.

[Lmn55d]

I would fold the flop. I'd say you have about 4-4.5 outs on average here, but there are 2 guys to act behind you. I would thus discount it to 3 and it becomes a fold. I despise a raise.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold the flop. I'd say you have about 4-4.5 outs on average here, but there are 2 guys to act behind you. I would thus discount it to 3 and it becomes a fold. I despise a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You despise a raise?

What would your play on the flop be if the BB turned his hand over and showed you QJ?

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like your flop raise here. You are rarely ahead and you are not going to get anbody to fold any hands that you are losing to here and anybody with a flush draw isn't going anywhere. The best line in this hand would probably be to call the flop and fold the turn UI if BB continues to fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think he could get mid/low pairs here to fold (22, 33, 55, 77) ? Often times in low limit people bet their draws. If he can get heads up with flush drawer (BB) that leads the flop, then this is a good play. I am not saying 100% BB is drawing, but it isn't unlikely either. And, for 2 bets more, he may get a straight draw to fold on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given OP's description of the button you have a very small chance of getting him to fold any pair here. Also, BB is an unknown and most sane players aren't going to lead into the pfr with a draw here, unless it's a combo draw, when it is still 4 handed. As said previously a raise is not going to get anybody to fold an OESD or flush draw.

I'm too lazy to find this right now, but Nate tha' Great started a thread titled 'Overcard challenge' (or something like that) where he challenged people to come up with situations where it was correct to raise the flop with overcards. There was some really good discussion in there and as I remember most people were misplacing aggresion in situations like this.

[Lmn55d]

I would still fold. It is sort of good in a way because you know that at least HE doesn't have you reverse dominated or drawing to fewer than 6 outs. There's a good chance he 3bets though. The reason I despise a raise is that the fact that you are barely getting odds to call means that the chances of you getting 3bet or donkbet on the turn must be fairly low to make raising have a higher EV than calling. I haven't played 2/4 in a while, but I'm pretty sure the chance of either of these things happening on this board isn't that low. There's a really good section in King Yao's book that deals with these considerations.