HU blind steal

[krishanleong]

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

I suck. Villian is 41/9/1/41 over 1358 hands. What is the correct play?

Krishan

[stinkypete]

what's the last 41? went to showdown?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
what's the last 41?

[/ QUOTE ]

went to showdown.

Krishan

[dave44]

I think I could find a turn fold. I don't see a player like this raising the turn with a hand you're ahead of.

[wackjob]

In the past I would always raise here PF, lately I've been just completing here. I think I'm folding the river.

[Stack]

This is a question, not an advice or criticism (to help me):

Why the turn donk-bet when the 9 pairs?

He will think that if you have a nine, either you would have 3bet on the flop, or go for a c/r on the turn. So he probably won't fold overcards.

Why not check call, and check call?

thx.

[dave44]

His opponent's range of hands includes all sorts of things after the flop raise including (but not limited to) flush draws and 9's. The second 9 makes it less likely he was raising with a 9 and fails to complete the flush. Our equity against the opponents range of hands just went way up.

[Lurker4]

I probably check/call him down unless turn or river is a spade that doesn't give me twopair or a straight. I don't understand the turn bet. If its to charge a possible flush draw, I don't think thats necessary since most flush draws that raise the flop are betting the turn as well, so you get a bet in on the turn whether you are ahead or behind.

[7ontheline]

I disagree, the turn bet is important because it prevents a flush draw from taking a free card and it's now less likely he has a nine. Also, it may make our hand seem stronger than it really is, although I kind of doubt he would fold a better hand. Still, he might fold a pair of 8s if he didn't have a spade and he thought OP was betting a draw. Personally, I play it the same although in retrospect I might find a fold on the turn. At the very least, a couple of our straight draw outs are pretty tainted and we could be drawing dead. This guy isn't THAT aggressive, so we could be way behind here.

[Stack]

Thanks

[ QUOTE ]
His opponent's range of hands includes all sorts of things after the flop raise including (but not limited to) flush draws and 9's. The second 9 makes it less likely he was raising with a 9 and fails to complete the flush. Our equity against the opponents range of hands just went way up.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so our equity went way up, so we bet partly for value, partly because we dont' want to give him a free card (right?).

If I underestand the above correctly, then I'm afraid I don't get the rest of the hand.

When he raises, either we think we have a chance to have the best hand and we should call down, or we think we're drawing and we should fold right there as the 5 and the T of spades are not really outs.

[stripsqueez]

i fold pre-flop some of the time - completing in the SB is something i only do because i can do it - heads up out of position the low suited connectors just arent great cards

i wouldnt bet the turn - i dont think its common for it to be checked behind on the turn and its horrible to pay extra when you are drawing - the replies to the post so far bring to mind the mantra that its right to bet the turn if you know what to do when raised

i dont like to fold the river heads up when i have a pair - i suspect your choice of betting the turn and getting raised has left you feeling obliged not to put a further bet in on the river - is there no chance this punter got excited with nothing but the spade 7 in his hand ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[setjes]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the turn bet. If its to charge a possible flush draw, I don't think thats necessary since most flush draws that raise the flop are betting the turn as well, so you get a bet in on the turn whether you are ahead or behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Idd, I hardly see people taking the free card. I think I call the turn, bet the river and fold to a raise

[Surfbullet]

Posting blind:

Check-call the turn. Don't worry so much about giving free cards, players rarely take them. Our hand is strong enough to take to showdown because we beat a large # of semibluffing hands, but I wouldn't want to pay a turn raise with it. If we had top pair I would like a turn bet better.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the turn bet. If its to charge a possible flush draw, I don't think thats necessary since most flush draws that raise the flop are betting the turn as well, so you get a bet in on the turn whether you are ahead or behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Idd, I hardly see people taking the free card. I think I call the turn, bet the river and fold to a raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting the river is very poor. The A is a scare card - but we'll only fold worse hands, and be called or raised by better ones. Additionally, our villain's holding will often be nothing but a 7+broadway or big /images/graemlins/spade.gif, and we'd much prefer him to bluff at the pot so we can earn an extra bet.

Surf

[oreogod]

Im a huge huge fan of the turn lead out in most situations, EXCEPT....with your hand, I think Im check calling.

This isnt a hand like a 55 where u have a choice between folding or calling a raise(and being obliged to call a blank river if u do call). I think this is a check w/ outs situation. Being raised here would be no good IMO.

I honestly dont think ppl lead the flop or lead the turn enough (too much check to the raiser or check/calls going on)...but here is not the place.

[setjes]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the river is very poor. The A is a scare card - but we'll only fold worse hands, and be called or raised by better ones. Additionally, our villain's holding will often be nothing but a 7+broadway or big , and we'd much prefer him to bluff at the pot so we can earn an extra bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. Didn't notice the river card was an A /images/graemlins/crazy.gif
If it was a blank, I think you would see some A and K-high calls here.

[wheelz]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-call the turn. Don't worry so much about giving free cards, players rarely take them.

[/ QUOTE ]

He'll charge himself to draw the large majority of the time, don't worry about free cards. You guarantee yourself a showdown for 2 BB, and I want to see a showdown here if no spades fall.

[Mig]

[ QUOTE ]
Posting blind:

Check-call the turn. Don't worry so much about giving free cards, players rarely take them. Our hand is strong enough to take to showdown because we beat a large # of semibluffing hands, but I wouldn't want to pay a turn raise with it. If we had top pair I would like a turn bet better.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it a lot. When I'm raised on the flop and have a showdown hand, I check/call to the river. They often bet no matter what they have anyway

[mikeyKay]

there is zero value in a river bet in this situation, no better hand is folding, no worse hand is calling. also, i think if you call the turn raise, then you have to see a showdown.

-mike

[dhaimon]

That donk bet is asking for a raise. Even though you're afraid of a free card I believe you are giving your hand away. I always raise these bets when I'm the villain, because they are NEVER a good hand.

I'd much rather 3-bet the flop and take it from there.
Or actually I'd probably check call the turn.

[Subfallen]

I like bet/call, c/call, c/fold. The A should scare him, if it doesn't that's bad.

[dave44]

[ QUOTE ]
I like bet/call, c/call, c/fold. The A should scare him, if it doesn't that's bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the ace would make him more likely to take another stab on the river if he's bluffing. There's a good chance ace-highs were going to the river anyway and now its less likely we have that.

[PokerBob]

i think i just let this go pf.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
That donk bet is asking for a raise. Even though you're afraid of a free card I believe you are giving your hand away. I always raise these bets when I'm the villain, because they are NEVER a good hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont be so sure. I sometimes do this with mid pair or a strong hand...if I have a strong hand against an aggressive player I will bet the flop, call his raise...bet/3-bet the turn.

Seems to work all the time against a TAG, LAG, etc. FOr the very reason, they dont put u on anything strong and they never expect u to donk bet a strong hand.

[ggbman]

Everything in this hand was fine except the turn lead. C/c the turn and c/c any non spade river. If you improve, then value bet.

[me454555]

Why does everyone feel this hand has showdown value on a board this scary? The board would look just as scary to your opponent as it does to you. What is his range of hands that he will raise the turn with? Does a lone spade raise? No, Do overcards raise? No Would a worse hand than yours raise the turn? No

For those reasons I like betting out on the turn and folding to a raise. I agree w/the previous posters who have stated that your hand goes way up in value once the 9 hits b/c it is less likely that he has top pair and more likely he was raising a draw. For that reason, betting here is the correct play as many hands such as overcards w/out a spade may actually take the freebe on such a scary board.

Once he raises you on the turn, I think he's got a higher 2 pair, trips, strait, or flush. You've got no more than 4 clean outs and your only getting 7:1 on this call. If the villain was more aggro here I'd say check call the turn.

[whodaman]

i would complete this vs a 41 vpip BB

[aslowjoe]

I am not sure exactly what I do but I would not be happy losing a bunch of BB's on a mediocre hand out of postion that even if I hit I may still lose.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure exactly what I do but I would not be happy losing a bunch of BB's on a mediocre hand out of postion that even if I hit I may still lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I posted it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Krishan

[dhaimon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That donk bet is asking for a raise. Even though you're afraid of a free card I believe you are giving your hand away. I always raise these bets when I'm the villain, because they are NEVER a good hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont be so sure. I sometimes do this with mid pair or a strong hand...if I have a strong hand against an aggressive player I will bet the flop, call his raise...bet/3-bet the turn.

Seems to work all the time against a TAG, LAG, etc. FOr the very reason, they dont put u on anything strong and they never expect u to donk bet a strong hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but it's very common for it to be a very mediocre hand, so you'll get raised a lot.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
Why does everyone feel this hand has showdown value on a board this scary?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it does. This board is only scary because it is a monotone flop, which very rarely flops someone a flush, especially HU.

Otherwise, it is very ragged, and frequently misses a pfr. Villains range of hands that raise the flop are very wide, because he would recognize that hero is often on something like QT- so a semibluff becomes more attractive.

Additionally, any lone /images/graemlins/spade.gif has a strong draw HU.

[ QUOTE ]
The board would look just as scary to your opponent as it does to you. What is his range of hands that he will raise the turn with? Does a lone spade raise? No, Do overcards raise? No Would a worse hand than yours raise the turn? No

[/ QUOTE ]

It is true that it is unlikely that many worse hands raise - it is possible, however, just unlikely.

[ QUOTE ]

For those reasons I like betting out on the turn and folding to a raise. I agree w/the previous posters who have stated that your hand goes way up in value once the 9 hits b/c it is less likely that he has top pair and more likely he was raising a draw. For that reason, betting here is the correct play as many hands such as overcards w/out a spade may actually take the freebe on such a scary board.

Once he raises you on the turn, I think he's got a higher 2 pair, trips, strait, or flush. You've got no more than 4 clean outs and your only getting 7:1 on this call. If the villain was more aggro here I'd say check call the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the thing: It costs the same to check-call as it does to bet-fold. Villain will bet the turn here nearly always to try and take the pot once we shut down on the flop, so don't worry about free cards. This also allows us the opportunity to improve when behind, to a straight (to beat trips or a bigger pair) or a full house (to beat a straight or a flush).

Additionally, we don't know he is going to raise. Flop raises mean less than turn raises - basically it says that villain thinks his hand is good against what is often no-pair, or he thinks that he can push us off no pair with a semibluff, hence the showdown value because we will very often be ahead of a semibluff or even be protecting a small PP.

Surf