Dan Issel and Yasser Arafat

Two unrelated storeis in today's news, but both troubling.


1) Dan Issel: I'm a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, and I find the fact that Issel felt he needed to include the heckler's nationality in his insult, as if drinking were a natural part of being a Mexican, is sad and disgusting. But aren't people entitled to say and think what they want? I realize the Nuggets had to punish him for the sake of community support. But why should someone be punished for showing ignorance or stupidity? I realize the pain such remarks cause, but do we have the right to not have to hear stupid things?


2) The Israelis have broken relations with Arafat. They are apparently planning a major millitary move to try to stop the suicide terrorists. I fear the worst. The cycle continues with no end in sight. The only thing I foresee is a situation similar to what happened to the Indians in our country in the 19th century: it won't end until the Israelis have beaten the Palestinians into submission. The Palestinians will fight with guerilla tactics, as did the Indians, but in the end, they will be marginalized, put onto reservations and gradually disappear from view.


By the way, I am a Jew and the whole thing saddens and sickens me.

(1) People aren't entitled to say what they think when they're on the job. When you're working you're representing your employer, and that extends to NBA coaches and athletes.


It's not like Issel's new at this. He's been a player and a coach more than long enough to know that getting heckled comes with the turf.


(2) Severing relations with Arafat is largely symbolic, because Arafat wasn't getting anything done anyway.


TRLS

Dan Issel was just probably under a lot of stress. I think he got a harsh punishment- people can say dumb things when they aren't thinking clearly. But at the same time they had to punish him for PR purposes. But a few games suspension and this thing will blow over. At least he isn't getting fired for something so trivial. Why is it acceptable for minorities to say things like "stupid white boy" or something like that but if some white dude says something its such a big deal? Afterall Issel didn't call the guy a wetback or beaner or anything like that. Also do you think the same thing would've happened if he happened to yell at some red-head and call him "Irish"? It's so silly that people bitch and moan about things like this.


As for Arafat- I don't know much about the politics over there but Israel should do whatever they can to stop those suicide bombers.

just another missle by issel..gl

1) Good point.


2) Another good point. Maybe this will force him to do a better job.

If someone describes a man from Mexico as a Mexican...well, I agree with you that it was probably unnecessary (I didn't read the story), but so what? I really don't think anyone should be penalized for using words that are descriptive and not slurs. This whole politically correct atmosphere has gotten WAY out of hand overall.


It's like the PC movement is trying to prevent people from saying anything that could possibly be taken the wrong way. "Mexican" is a descriptive term...would it also have been an evil thing if he had specified that the heckler was a "man" or a "woman"? It's just information related to the factual incident and I don't think it should be suppressed. Perhaps it doesn't have to be included either, but he got heckled and I don't see anything wrong if he said it was done by a (just for example purposes since I didn't read the article) "tall Latino in his early 20's with short cropped hair, a blue jean jacket and a beverage in his left hand." If those are the facts those are the facts and I don't think anyone has any business calling for suppression of that information if the "victim" (Issel) of the incident cares to publicly state it when asked about what hapened. Worrying that some might misinterpret this information or speculating that Issel had nefarious intent in providing it is just poppycock IMO. Why the hell can't people just take things at face value?


Besides, if some folks feel slighted, SO WHAT? Is it our duty to make sure they don't? I really don't think so. Should we make laws or corporate policies to ensure this? IMO no we shouldn't; and free speech should not just be protected by the Constitution, it should not be regimented by corporations either. This is all so damn silly. I don't think we have any business going to such lengths to protect the feelings of folks who just might feel slighted.


Look at it this way: even if someone actually does flat-out insult you, it's YOUR choice whether you let it upset you or not. Why are we trying to protect everyone from having their feelings hurt by ruling on what people can and cannot say? Does anyone else see the absurdity of this? Why should protecting the feelings of others at all costs and in every way that can be anticipated, take precedence over free speech?


I think it's backwards when people blame the speaker for offending others...after all, it's always YOUR personal decision whether or not you CHOOSE to take offense, although many people don't realize this. The power ultimately lies in the listener, not the speaker. The speaker cannot offend ANYONE without the tacit (and often unconscious) permission of the listener to be offended.


I thought Arafat was a primarily a terrorist a couple of decades or more ago. Then it seemed he became a quasi-statesman. Now perhaps his terrorist roots are showing more clearly, although his lack of satisfactory response to demands he imprison terrorist leaders may just be due to his not really having that kind of political power...maybe Hamas would launch an assault on him too if he did so.

The man in question involved with Dan Issel is an American citizen.

My mother's maiden name is Zweig, that's German for Branch. It's German Jew in origin. Her people don't exist anymore. Remember that when you see posts about how evil Israel is, or how the Nazi's were preferential to the Bolsheviks.

OK, as I said I didn't read the story, but that is not the point I was trying to make. He could have referred to him as a Latino-American and would still have likely had the same problems due to the overly zealous PC-correct attitude and PC-correct requirements that are sweeping the couintry.

"I thought Arafat was a primarily a terrorist a couple of decades or more ago. Then it seemed he became a quasi-statesman."


Here are some more "quasi-statesmen" off the top of my head :


Menachem Begin, PM of Israel.


Nelson Mandela, President of South Africa.


Gerry Adams, future PM of Northern Ireland.

Just what DID Dan Issel say? thanks

The Palestinians can have peace anytime they want it.

They can have land anytime they want it.

They can have sovereignty any tie they want it.

The native american indians were doomed.

He called a heckler a fat Mexican piece of shit.

What about if he would have said you fat Mexican descendant piece of shit?

What about if he would have said either:


You fat Mexican-American piece of shit


You fat Hispanic piece of shit.


I think this fine and suspension is bogus and a gesture towards the offended hispanic community would have been much better. How about a donation to some worthy cause that would show he really isn't biggotted against those of Hispanic descent?

Just my opinion:


We do need laws and rules in place to prevent and deal with discrimination in such areas as education, rental, employment, etc. These laws are very important.


We don't need laws or rules against name-calling, whatever the insults are. People should remember what they learned as little kids: "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names can never hurt me." When a person stoops to name-calling or using racial slurs they are really just showing bad things about themselves. However, I still think the right to free speech is more important and that those insulted can practice some emotional maturity in dealing with it. I don't think we should have rules in place to act in effect as surrogate parents to protect the feelings of people who might be insulted.


Essentially, we should prevent unfairly discriminatory ACTIONS to the extent we can, but discriminatory speech should be looked down upon but allowed.

....are you in favor of Israel going after the terrorists in Palestine or not?

...unlike you, the supporter of towel-head terrorists wherever they are. Go back under your anti-semitic rock


BTW, I'm not a Jew, but a staunch supporter of Israel and a hater of phonies such as Arafat, whom I affectionately refer to as the Green & White checkerboard towel-headed terrorist.

...the Mexican was a fat drunken dirt-bag - and what's so wrong about telling him off? The problem with the P.C. crowd is they think that's so horrible - I betcha most Mexicans would've agreed with Issel privately. I betcha a lot of them would say that the fat Mexican piece of shit was giving proud, hard-working Mexicans a bad name. Note also that he didn't call ALL Mexicans fat pieces of shit - just the one who was heckling him. Bravo Danny boy!!!

In point of fact he said "Go have another beer, you fucking Mexican piece of shit." It is clear, at least to me, that Issel meants, at least in part, that he's a piece of shit because he's a Mexican.

The problem is that the fact that he is a Mexican (if indeed he is)is irrelevant to whether or not he was fat or drunk. It makes it appear that Issel felt it was relevant. So it's not just PC, it's bigotry. It's not illegal to have racist or bigoted thoughts. It is sad and disgusting.

By the way : why do you feel the need to declare that you are not a Jew ?..

It wasn't clear to me that he thought that the heckler was a "piece of shit" because he was of Mexican descent. It's also very hard for me to believe that Dan Issel is a bigot at heart.

Ummmmmm, are you responding to the correct post?

I said I don't know very much about the politics in Israel, but what I do know, I favor them (jews) over the Palestinians.


Kris

Issel:


"Go drink another beer, you Mexican ...,"


We know what ... means but I don't he used the word "fucking"


What's also interesting is that the heckler didn't think he should be fired for the remark but he should be fired for his poor record. Again from ESPN


"Bobby Bowman, 23, of Thornton, Colo., has said he was the target of Issel's comments. Described in local media as Hispanic, Bowman said the coach should not be fired for his remark but should resign because of the team's poor record."


Do I think that this incident is being blown up way out of proportion? Yes I do. Do I think Dan Issel is a bigot? No I don't.

M,

You are totally right about this PC nonsense getting out of hand. It is so fu**ing lame!

Anyway, it's funny how everybody's all bent about Issel saying something to the fan but I am curious to know what the fan was yelling at Issel. Who knows what the guy was saying, but I can guarantee it wasn't very nice. This whole thing is blown out of proportion.

Political Correctness = Bad News!


Kris

Dr Wogga is someone who used to post on Stanford Wong's Blackjack website. He thought he had a terrific sense of humor - until everybody told him to shut up. He wasn't funny, just truly obnoxious. Then he started insulting and flaming and trolling to the point that they took away his licence : PWI, see.


Dr Wogga is unable to discuss anything with anyone who does not have the same view he has on sports, politics or art. And his views on all three are identical to Rush Limbaugh, his hero and mentor.


Finally, although Dr Wogga casually accuses as a racist anyone he doesn't like, he is actually one of the worst racists currently on the web.


(His grammar could use some doctoring too..)

Yes he did use the word "fucking" although it was not reported that way in print (at least what I read). Yes after seeing the video I do believe it was an ethnic insult. I still don't think he's a bigot at heart though.

I don't know much about Rush Limbaugh, but I do know I had to laugh when David Letterman asked if anybody else thought he was a big fat pumpkinhead.

Just to play devil's advocate...


calling him "fat" is bigotry towards the obese, but no one makes a big deal out of that. If Issel had called him a "fat piece of shit", he might have been fined by the league, but he wouldn't be in the middle of this controversy.


So, when does a word go from being an adjective to being a bigoted slur? I don't know the answer, but it's and interesting question. I'd say when a certain critical mass of persecution has be brought upon a "class" of people, then we decide any further transgression, even an adjective, has too much potential to do harm. The class of racial minorities has achieved this status, while the class of fat people hasn't.

Andy,

The fact that he was fat is irrelevant to whether or not he was was Mexican or drunk.


What are you? Sizest?

I'm not being critical. Your post just made me reflect on my family, history, and some other posters here in the past. Your post seemed reasonable.

Yes.I am in favor of Israel's survival. The history of Jews silently putting up with either extermination, or horrendous discrimination passed in May of 1945. Of course, certain previous posters to these forums seem to believe that this is wrong.


Israel is caught fighting against guerillas on its own soil. Barring outright conventional military action, history has taught that counter-insurgency is fought using whatever covert tactics it takes to survive. The issue for Israel is clearly not an issue of survival of a way of life, but the survival of its people, period. Anyone who denies this is clearly , in my view, anti-semitic.

Issel used the term in a derogatory way. One thing to consider is that if he had made the same type of slur against an African American, he surely would have been fired.

Bowman repeatedly told Issel "You Suck!"


(When he's right, he's right).

Is Bowman the Mexican dude?

That name doesn't sound Mexican to me.


Kris

Van Exel claimed he tried to pull Issel away from the heckler, and he did make a half-hearted effort. (Van Exel wants out of Denver because he's "tired of losing." and apparently has a low opinion of Issel's coaching skills or lack thereof.) I also saw what I assume was one of the ass't. coaches try to get Issel to let it be.


I'm not quite sure what you mean by "at heart." I've never in my life referred to someone's race or nationality when angry at them, even when out of control, like Issel apparently was. One can only assume, then, that "at heart" Issel feels being Mexican has something to do with being drunk, and this would make him a bigot.

Reading some quotes from Van Exel my take is that he respects Issel and if that is the case I believe that it is mutual. I believe he has been supported by his players. If Issel was a bigot, then I have serious doubts that he would command the respect and support that he has from his players and his assisstent.


No whether or not his remark proves he's a true believing bigot I have serious doubts that it does. Perhaps you just have more character and intelligence than Issel and handle stress better than he does. When I say "at heart" I don't believe that he really feels or believes that other races are inferior. Just my take after observing his long career in the NBA as a player, coach, and executive.

He said "Go get another beer you Fu**ing Mexican piece of S**T"

Understanding the word "another"...I Think Issel just wanted the fan to go get Issel a beer, And all Issel was doing was Identifying him in A Crowd of people when he said to the fan what he said. How else would the fan know that Issel was talking to him? The fan got mad because Issel didn't give the fan any money to pay for the beer.And the fan did not want to buy the coach a beer because he is a lousy coach.

...and I thought that's what you were alluding to - didn't want to assume. Israel needs to continue killing Palestinian scum so the Cyruses of the world can take their towels and their anti-semitic, anti-American diatribe and head on out to old Tora Bora to party with your homies.


And God bless our president for not meetng with or acknowledging the green-plaided towel-head terrorist and dribbling phony Arafat. And last, but not least: the only good Palestinian,is a dead Palestinian. Anyone who saw pictures of these bastards cheering our innocent victims at the WTC and Pentagon, or who has seen Palestinain fathers teaching their 5 and 6 year old sons to strap on explosives to learn how to become suicide bombers when they grow up, is the absolute proof of a society that has declared their disdain for our way of living. May they all rot in hell.

I have followed some of your posts here and in other forums. You are styling yourself as some sort of family-oriented person, pious, tolerant, and patriotic.


It may come as a shock to you but you are none of the above - at all. Of course, I do not expect you to realize it. Most likely you will go on deluding yourself and busting a vein a day.


Good luck on those bets.


--Cyrus

....my support of Israel is not religious, but political, sinc I am Roman Catholic. A strong Israel is our best ally in that part of the world.


And you Cyrus? You are what exactly? Other than a cyber stalker? You have shown yourself to be an anti-American, anti-semite, and supporter of the Palestinian terrorists. So what does that make you, even if those posts about you being gay are not true? Tell us about yourself.

that the worst insult you can think of is that I'm gay.


You are a nickel-and-dime bully, my man. I know you think higher of yourself than that but that's the bottom line: Nickels and dimes.


Lots of noise, not much value.

'A strong Israel is our best ally in that part of the world.'


please elaborate.


brad

"please elaborate."


...you might as well ask Mason to loan you a hundred bucks.

....what are you other than the lowest form of cyber sniper?