$109s - Weird line with weak TP

[Unarmed]

Anyone like this?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t970)
BB (t955)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t955)
MP2 (t1030)
MP3 (t1000)
CO (t1090)
Hero (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t57.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t60) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t30</font>, UTG+2 calls t30, Hero calls t30, SB folds.

River: (t150) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t55</font>, BB folds, UTG+2 calls t55.

Final Pot: t260

[Jman28]

I fold preflop.

I like your line post flop.

[wuwei]

Thanks for your posts, Unarmed. Keep 'em coming. They have been really good at prodding me to start thinking outside the box for my postflop play. So far, I like the results. OK, onto this hand...

preflop: I occassionaly like to limp hands like this on the button and use my position and betting impetus to take down small pots that nobody wants on the flop (when I miss). I have no problem with the limp here to mix things up once in a while.

flop: Perfect, right? Nobody seems to like the flop, let's pick it up. Hell, we even made a hand. Nothing wrong with betting.

The trouble with betting the flop is that the board is quite coordinated, where do we stand with TPNK when we get called? Do we bet the turn hoping to charge draws and take a free showdown? Do we check behind and call a river bet? Or just check/fold the turn?

So you checked, which I think is fine. Checking allows us to keep the pot small and reevaluate things on the turn depending on the action and what card comes, and possibly get some more value out of TP.

turn: The 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif is a pretty nice card. Puts another flush draw on the board, but still looks good for us. I don't see anything to do on the turn except call.

river: Another good card for us, no obvious draws were completed. The action suggests that our hand is likely the best, so a value bet makes sense. I think this bet is somewhat questionable, but our opponents have done nothing to make me think that TP isn't good.

The flop is the most questionable part of your line in my eyes. I would usually bet this flop and hope to take the pot down, but I do like the line you took. Your line is much less likely to get you into serious trouble with a marginal hand.

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t57.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your line only makes sense if your opponents are going to often check-call a decent king from EP, or check/raise their trip 5s/fdraws here. I can't make this judgement about your opponents (mostly in regard on how they'd play a medium-weak king here), but at the 109s I'd assume this would be in their standard repertoire.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (t60) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t30</font>, UTG+2 calls t30, Hero calls t30, SB folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obvious.

[ QUOTE ]
River: (t150) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t55</font>, BB folds, UTG+2 calls t55.

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point he has probably been calling with a pair of 6s, Qs, or a busted draw. You would've heard from something else. Good value bet.

[Freudian]

I liked it. Probably would prefer one or two limpers before playing a hand like this myself.

Postflop I'd probably bet 50 on the flop to take it down right there but checking and trusting your K is good certainly enables you to win more without huge risk since you aren't married to your hand if bad things happen on the turn/river.

[Wes ManTooth]

What was your reasoning with the 55 bet into a pot of 150 on the river?

[kyro]

TEACHER'S PET!!!! TEACHER'S PET!!!!!

sorry, that won't happen again.


I would bet that flop all day but I'm quite confident you have a solid reason for not doing so.

[schwza]

i think that call pre-flop is really bad. postflop looks good.

[freemoney]

how many tables are you playing at a time?

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
I liked it. Probably would prefer one or two limpers before playing a hand like this myself.

Postflop I'd probably bet 50 on the flop to take it down right there but checking and trusting your K is good certainly enables you to win more without huge risk since you aren't married to your hand if bad things happen on the turn/river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it too but with additional limpers the pot will become larger and it will be far more likely to be outkicked.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I liked it. Probably would prefer one or two limpers before playing a hand like this myself.

Postflop I'd probably bet 50 on the flop to take it down right there but checking and trusting your K is good certainly enables you to win more without huge risk since you aren't married to your hand if bad things happen on the turn/river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it too but with additional limpers the pot will become larger and it will be far more likely to be outkicked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course your high card value for the K goes down but the flush value goes up.

[Moonsugar]

I don't like the river value bet into 2 opps. One ok but not 2. It is a value bet, right? Not a bluff?

[Maulik]

Agreed. However there are very few situations which I like being on a flush draw and those don't come often enough at this blind leve. =[

[Irieguy]

It seems relatively clear what's happening with this hand on the turn, did you consider raising the turn and just showing down the river if you get called?

I kind of like the value bet on the end, but don't think I would make it.

Irieguy

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems relatively clear what's happening with this hand on the turn, did you consider raising the turn and just showing down the river if you get called?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, scratch my first post about the turn, I think this line is superior.

[fnord_too]

I think I play a lot more hands than most in the early stages, but I let this one go pre flop. I really don't like King-Little hands.

Flop and turn look ok given that you played it, though I think firing on the flop is fine, too. I would check behind on the river though. I don't like small value bets in NL with one pair hands, let alone top pair crap kicker. Unless you know your opponents would bet any better hands and call with some worse hands, I would just show this down.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems relatively clear what's happening with this hand on the turn, did you consider raising the turn and just showing down the river if you get called?

I kind of like the value bet on the end, but don't think I would make it.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Irie,

Turn raise is probably better. My thoughts were: BB could easily have had me beat on the flop but whiffed on a C/R, so I really have no idea where I'm at. If UTG+2 had bet, I would have raised, because he's betting anything legit on the flop. Perhaps I have a little too much respect for BB turn bets (especailly since I steal pots in that spot all the time)

Anyway, if I raise the turn I'll either take it down immediately or get 1 or 2 calls. Given there was no action on the flop, if I'm called the river is going to be ridiculously difficult to play against any thinking opponent as they can 1) hit their draw, or 2) represent any one of the many draws that could come through. I didn't want to bloat the pot given this b/c it makes it more difficult to make tough calls. Am I overthinking this?

River bet has to be correct given the action thus far. The mid pair on this board is decent enough that UTG+2 or BB could easily have made it to the river with such a holding. Plus I could easily get looked up here by tons of stuff. But frankly, the reason I bet is because on the river UTG+2 has shown no aggression so far so BB isn't trying to C/R him. I have shown no aggression so UTG+2 can't be trying to C/R me. I am good here nearly 100% of the time so I bet. I REALLY think people miss a ton of value bets in spots like this. When the risk of getting C/R'd is basically zero, I think value betting on nearly all boards last to act is normally +EV because, as you say, people love to call.

I have a question/disagreement. The flop check I agree with and think was the right move, but why the turn? I think you should have raised a fair amount there, because otherwise chasing flush draws have all the reason to stay in. The river is a nice card, and like the river bet, but I would have raised the turn about the pot. Just wondering.

Edit: Didnt see that response, but you dont need to respond to me. I would definitely have bet the turn, and I also definitely agree with your river bet.

[schwza]

can you also talk about the preflop a little? i had finally ground away all of the "i want to limp Axs without multiway action" vestiges from MTT's and now you're limping a crappy suited king. i was surprised.

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, if I raise the turn I'll either take it down immediately or get 1 or 2 calls. Given there was no action on the flop, if I'm called the river is going to be ridiculously difficult to play against any thinking opponent as they can 1) hit their draw, or 2) represent any one of the many draws that could come through. I didn't want to bloat the pot given this b/c it makes it more difficult to make tough calls. Am I overthinking this?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, as long as your opponents are regularly capable of this. But I think I'd be willing to take this risk against most opponents being in position in order to gain value through the draws.

Not to mention, they'd have to be careful about what they're representing OOP since I don't think a turn raise there necessarily excludes you from having the draw yourself.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
can you also talk about the preflop a little? i had finally ground away all of the "i want to limp Axs without multiway action" vestiges from MTT's and now you're limping a crappy suited king. i was surprised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno... I'll limp tons of stuff with position. As long as you can take down the odd pot with air AND you don't get yourself in trouble with a crappy top pair then I can't see it causing any harm. I just like seeing flops. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
can you also talk about the preflop a little? i had finally ground away all of the "i want to limp Axs without multiway action" vestiges from MTT's and now you're limping a crappy suited king. i was surprised.

[/ QUOTE ]

The better you are, the more flops you can see. Everybody thinks they are awesome, so everybody sees too many flops. The way to beat players who see too many flops is to see fewer flops. That's why you make money by folding a lot preflop.

But a player who really is good, not just one who thinks they are good, can decide when they can profitably see a flop with a hand they would normally fold. Even if the play itself is slightly negative EV because they are underestimating the likelihood of being dominated by one of the blinds or limpers, they can make up for that by losing only a little when they are dominated but winning a bunch when they suck out. For example, if Unarmed was against a bigger king in this hand, he would have lost a few chips with his top pair, but doubled up if he made 2 pair on the river.

FWIW, I would be willing to limp with a wide range here, would min-raise with an even wider range, and would occasionally fire-out a ridiculous raise and take the little pot just to send the message that limping can be expensive when I'm in LP.

If I were already involved in another hand at one of my 7 other tables I would just fold.

Irieguy

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
would min-raise with an even wider range

[/ QUOTE ]

alright, now you're totally blowing my mind here. this thread is doing more to shake my views on level 1 pre-flop than any other.

can you elaborate a little on the minraise with limpers in?

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
would min-raise with an even wider range

[/ QUOTE ]

alright, now you're totally blowing my mind here. this thread is doing more to shake my views on level 1 pre-flop than any other.

can you elaborate a little on the minraise with limpers in?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I see a cheap donkey costume for sale, I buy it.

Irieguy

PS- I had to show down 8-3 off in an early round of the Bellagio Sunday event last week for a big pot and the guy next to me actually scooted over just a bit... as though he was subconsciously afraid that he could "catch" whatever disease I had.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, if I raise the turn I'll either take it down immediately or get 1 or 2 calls. Given there was no action on the flop, if I'm called the river is going to be ridiculously difficult to play against any thinking opponent as they can 1) hit their draw, or 2) represent any one of the many draws that could come through. I didn't want to bloat the pot given this b/c it makes it more difficult to make tough calls. Am I overthinking this?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, as long as your opponents are regularly capable of this. But I think I'd be willing to take this risk against most opponents being in position in order to gain value through the draws.

Not to mention, they'd have to be careful about what they're representing OOP since I don't think a turn raise there necessarily excludes you from having the draw yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sort of structured the reply wrong. The part you quoted is more of a side-reason for not raising. The first part (having no idea where I'm at) is the main reason. I'm always less concerned with getting value from draws when I'm not relatively confident I have the best hand.

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm always less concerned with getting value from draws when I'm not relatively confident I have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think by the turn you have a pretty good idea of where you're at: you have the best hand.

If no draws hit, would you be willing to call a normal sized river bet? If so, you're going to lose that bet to a better hand whether you raise it on the turn or call it on the river. But on the turn, you at least get draws to pay you off.

[Moonsugar]

[ QUOTE ]
I am good here nearly 100%

[/ QUOTE ]

Our definitions of 'nearly' are very different.

[Jason Strasser]

Dan,

I think you played this hand fine but I have an alternative to this. You are obviously hoping that a combination of your flop check and turn call will get some sort of call by a worse pair on the river. I think, however, that a large part of the time the opponent leading 30 on this type of board will have a draw type hand, and that you probably need to maximize your value versus a draw. I think the way you played it your value bet on the end is very thin. I think you should make a raise to like 125 on the turn and check the river behind, a queen may not believe you either. Its kinda a quasi limit type play where you raise the turn for a cheap showdown.

I guess your play is optimal if the bluffing frequency of your opponent is zero...

-Jason

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
Its kinda a quasi limit type play where you raise the turn for a cheap showdown.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks J,

I really have to incorporate this concept into my game. On SNG stacks I often just default to the line which induces bluffs/calls from worse hands over the blocking bet type line. I'll look for places where it makes better sense to do the latter. I don't think it often does given stack size and the typical opponent profile, but it'll be good practice to at least identify the alternate line.

[Scuba Chuck]

I think I read your game play very similarly.

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone like this?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t970)
BB (t955)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t955)
MP2 (t1030)
MP3 (t1000)
CO (t1090)
Hero (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t57.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t60) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t30</font>, UTG+2 calls t30, Hero calls t30, SB folds.

River: (t150) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t55</font>, BB folds, UTG+2 calls t55.

Final Pot: t260

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's what i would do if i was the button and got tpwk on flop in this situation.

FLOP:
I would have bet out on the flop. Since everyone checked, I would think tpwk is good till someone tells me otherwise (ie: c/r). I also dont want someone drawing getting a free card.

TURN:
i would continue to bet (1/2 pot) if checked to. If someone bets 1st, I would call since they may have middle pair and testing if i was trying to buy the pot on the flop.

RIVER:
if i was betting out on flop+turn and they are calling, then i would get worried and check on river. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif (weak-tight?)

Unarmed, why didnt you bet out on the flop?

And how's my line for flop/turn/river?