AQo - Correct application of WA/WB ?

[Fantam]

I havent posted a hand for a while, so I thought I would share this one with everyone.

Apart from a decent player and a LAG, neither of whom were involved in this hand, the table seemed to be somewhat tight and moderately passive. I had not noticed anything unusual about villain.

Party Poker $0.50/$1 (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds,Hero raises, 5 folds, SB 3-bets,BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 7sb)</font>
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 4.5bb)</font>
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 6.5bb)</font>
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: (8.5bb)

I felt that the flop was good for me, but I was uncertain as to whether I was ahead of SB or not, so I decided to call down.

I put SB on on a conservative range of hands from AA-QQ and AK. I wanted to see a showdown and my reasoning was that if I had the best hand and raised SB's flop bet, that he would probably fold and I would not win the maximum from him.

Also if SB had the best hand, then raising the flop would make seeing a showdown expensive if SB then 3-bet.

I would be interested to know what other players think about the line of play I chose, and whether they think WA/WB applies.

For anyone new to WA/WB, here is a good thread about it:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/favlinker.php?Cat=&amp;Entry=105065&amp;F_Board=micro&amp;Thre ad=2546783&amp;partnumber=&amp;postmarker=

[UncleSalty]

Your hand is way too strong for WA/WB. Jam this pot unless you continue to meet aggression. I would raise and cap the flop. If he still leads the turn you can probably just call down.

[i]Edit: The way you played it, you need to raise this river at the very least. You have TPTK, for goodness sakes man!! This line is pretty weak tight IMO.

[KeysrSoze]

You're not really WAY behind unless he specifically had AA or QQ. You'd have to be very sure he only reraises with AA, KK, or QQ to use this line, I'd think.

[Vote4Pedro]

hmmmm...when I think WA/WB I think of situations when youre reraised and you hold something like ATs or AJ and the flop comes A high. This is a WA situation the majority of the time. You gotta find a raise somewhere in this hand. I usually mix it up depending on my opponent and the texture of the board

[Shillx]

I put SB on on a conservative range of hands from AA-QQ and AK.

Yeah against this range, you played it fine. I feel like he will probably have a larger range then this, but I could be wrong.

The only other way to play this type of hand (say I had him on AA-TT and AK) is to raise the river. The reason why is because it is a lot easier for AA and KK to reraise you on the flop or turn. If scary cards start coming off the deck, they will have a hard time putting in a river 3-bet. Likewise, you don't want to scare TT or JJ into folding out anytime before the river.

Brad

[Fantam]

Given that I was the opening preflop raiser, if I raised the flop (or turn bet), what do you think the likelihood of a passive player calling with a weaker hand ?

I was also trying to maximise my expectation in this hand from someone who may have been betting with something like AK.

[Fantam]

Thanks Brad, thats helpful.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
Your hand is way too strong for WA/WB. Jam this pot unless you continue to meet aggression. I would raise and cap the flop. If he still leads the turn you can probably just call down.

[i]Edit: The way you played it, you need to raise this river at the very least. You have TPTK, for goodness sakes man!! This line is pretty weak tight IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you want to raise and/or cap the flop, and then call down if he still keeps coming? Seems like the perfect way to win the least/lose the most.

Let's say we raise the flop, he 3-bets, we cap, then he leads the turn. What does he have that you're beating at that point?

I think this hand was played fine. I could be talked into a river raise because it's somewhat difficult to be 3-bet by a 'typical' player even when you're beat, but I don't have a problem with just calling.

[eviljeff]

I don't like it. you need to throw in a raise at some point. I probably pop the flop to see how much he likes his cards.

edit: alright, just read the other posts. I guess raising the flop sucks. raise river.

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]

So you want to raise and/or cap the flop, and then call down if he still keeps coming? Seems like the perfect way to win the least/lose the most.

Let's say we raise the flop, he 3-bets, we cap, then he leads the turn. What does he have that you're beating at that point?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's back up and discuss one step at a time. First of all, we have no real reason to assume that villain has a strong enough hand to re-raise our flop raise anyway, but I think we have to put in a raise here to find out. (For value, but the information we get will be useful.)

Why do I think a flop raise is for value? What range do we put a "normal" player in the SB on for the 3-bet PF? I would say AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ and possibly TT and AJ.

AA - 3
KK - 6
QQ - 3

JJ - 6
AK - 12
AQ - 9 (Split)

Excluding the possibility of some loose 3-bets with AJ and TT, there are twice as many hands villain plays like this which we are currently beating (or chopping) than which beat us. Clearly a value raise.

So, going straight into call down mode without sticking in a raise on the flop is pretty weak.

Now, if we get 3-bet on the flop we can probably narrow villains range to AA, KK, QQ, AQ, or possibly an overly aggressive AK. This changes things quite a bit, and makes me lean toward just calling a 3-bet rather than capping, but I think I will usually still cap to try and slow down my opponent. (The extra SB is well worth it if it gets me a free turn card.)

I guess if villain is still coming at us on 4th street, there is enough compelling evidence to say we are drawing to 2 outs at best. So, I will change my answer and fold the turn in that hypothetical case.

Regardless, I still maintain that you have to raise the flop and go from there.

[cold_cash]

If you raise the flop he's going to shutdown w/ AK and JJ (and lower pocket pairs), and raise w/ AA, KK and QQ.