Calling a river overbet? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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MrG

08-14-2005, 01:21 PM

My player reading skills are terrible but my read on the villian is that he is, at worst, a competent player. While I appreciated comments on all streets, I am mainly wondering how you guys would read this river overbet. It just didn't add up to me, I thought it just didn't fit.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em (NL$25) (9 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

CO ($21.20)
Button ($24.90)
Hero ($27.20)
BB ($46.48)
UTG ($13.30)
UTG+1 ($7.60)
MP1 ($29.10)
MP2 ($28.75)
MP3 ($6.00)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.65, BB calls $0.50, 1 folds.

Flop: ($1.75) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.00, BB calls $1.00.

Turn: ($3.75) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $2.00, BB calls $2.00.

River: ($7.75) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $15.00, Hero calls $15.00.

Final Pot: $37.75.

AllIn3High

08-14-2005, 01:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My player reading skills are terrible but my read on the villian is that he is, at worst, a competent player. While I appreciated comments on all streets, I am mainly wondering how you guys would read this river overbet. It just didn't add up to me, I thought it just didn't fit.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em (NL$25) (9 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

CO ($21.20)
Button ($24.90)
Hero ($27.20)
BB ($46.48)
UTG ($13.30)
UTG+1 ($7.60)
MP1 ($29.10)
MP2 ($28.75)
MP3 ($6.00)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.65, BB calls $0.50, 1 folds.

Flop: ($1.75) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.00, BB calls $1.00.

Turn: ($3.75) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $2.00, BB calls $2.00.

River: ($7.75) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $15.00, Hero calls $15.00.

Final Pot: $37.75.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise more pre-flop. And why didn't you bet the river? It looks like he has either has a weak made hand or was sandbagging the flush / straight on the turn. Bet the river and fold to a raise.

As played I'm folding to his overbet unless yuo've seen him do it with air. If he was bluffing why the huge overbet, that makes no sense at all.

08-14-2005, 01:31 PM

I would raise more preflop.
Also, I would pot the flop. After villians river bet, I think the main thing you should be worried about is the flush.
Villian's line looks strange, and I would probably fold here, but I dont think the call is terrible.

08-14-2005, 01:39 PM

As others have said, your bets a little too small

Looks like a flush to me, hoping you have the straight

MrG

08-14-2005, 01:40 PM

Both responses so far suggest I should have raised more preflop. I always raise 3xBB when I raise. Why should I bet more preflop in the particular case? Thanks

08-14-2005, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Both responses so far suggest I should have raised more preflop. I always raise 3xBB when I raise. Why should I bet more preflop in the particular case? Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you are in the small blind meaning you will be out of position for the rest of the hand

08-14-2005, 01:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Both responses so far suggest I should have raised more preflop. I always raise 3xBB when I raise. Why should I bet more preflop in the particular case? Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you are in the small blind meaning you will be out of position for the rest of the hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, there's one limper so you should add a bb for the limper. If you're on the button with aces and everyone limps, you don't still make it 3bb, do you?

I don't hate the call on the river, because you've played the hand so weak. He could easily think he can get you off the hand with a scary board. but I'd fold. There's too many things you can't beat. Really the only thing you can beat here, it seems to me, is a total bluff. I think you just have to give him credit for making a gutsy play and move on. But playing the hand stronger preflop and on the flop might have saved you from this situtation to begin with.

MrG

08-14-2005, 01:51 PM

Being more aggressive preflop when oop makes a ton of sense. Thanks I see alot of great advice on this forum but sometimes I need the reasons behind the decisions. When OOP should I continue with the increased aggresion on the other streets as well ?

stu-unger

08-14-2005, 01:52 PM

if u like to raise 3bb then u should be raising 3bb+1bb per limper+1bb for position. u should pot this flop and then make your decisions from there as they will be much more simple. fold to the river overbet. people don't make 2xpot overbets with air enough for this to be profitable.

PS:3xbb raise=.75

MrG

08-14-2005, 01:54 PM

I don't know why betting 2/3 the pot on the flop and turn is weak play. Does a pot-sized bet make calls less of a mistake for people chasing? I realize these questions may seem elementary but please bear with me. Thanks.

MrG

08-14-2005, 01:58 PM

Thanks I will incorporate the addition of a BB per limper and one for position. I just noticed that the preflop raise is .65. That is odd as I clicked .75 but forgot I was in the SB. That says alot for my table awareness lol.

amoeba

08-14-2005, 02:03 PM

so we charge inadequetly for the draw then we pay off like a jackpot when it hits?

I hate turn bet.

MrG

08-14-2005, 02:05 PM

amoeba-
Would you bet more on the turn or check? Why?

amoeba

08-14-2005, 02:07 PM

check. the bet will only get called by hands that beat you.

at least the check will induce some bluffs.

MrG

08-14-2005, 02:11 PM

So if I check and he bets then what? That card is scary and while it is scary for me it also could be scary for him. I felt like checking would cede the hand right there. It seems my aggresion is not only too weak but also misplaced.

amoeba

08-14-2005, 02:14 PM

if you think your hand is good call, if you don't think its good fold. also he might check behind so pot isn't inflated.

betting because you don't know whether your hand is good or not is dumb because he isn't folding the flush and hes folding everything you beat.

stu-unger

08-14-2005, 02:15 PM

u need a read at the turn. i like check/call-block river
or if it checks through to check/call the river.

08-14-2005, 02:20 PM

At this level, I like to raise 4xBB +1BB per limper. Seems to work pretty well.

MrG

08-14-2005, 02:21 PM

Thanks to everyone for all the wisdom.
Here is an example where the result was good but my play was bad.
I knew that even though I won the hand(he showed KJo) I played it poorly.
Well, back to the tables.
Getting lucky like I did is nice but I would rather play well.

davekngs

08-14-2005, 02:35 PM

I think he probably made his flush and then put in the standard overbet that a lot of 25NL players tend to make recently with a big hand as an attempt to represent a huge bluff and get called by a weak hand such as TP or an overpair. I fold this 95% of the time unless the villan has taken the last 5 pots down with big river bets on a passive table and is beginning to think that betting big automatically wins the pot. oh ye......raise more Preflop, hate to say it again but that bet is flimsy. standard bet at 25NL should be 4BB or more depending upon how many limpers there are and how loose the table is. If I bet 65c I reckon I'd get 5 calls and someone would turn over a 84s for a flush or a filthy little 2 pair because 65c wouldnt make them lay down 72o preflop. You dont want to play this against more than 1 or 2 opponents IMO