I hate pocket pairs...

[DrunkHamster]

I have no real reads on people in this hand, I only played a few hands with them so far. PF is standard, although I am starting to feel as though it shouldn't be. For example, with 99 and TT, I don't think I have ever won a pot with more than 4 people in without improving to a set. Anyway, what do you think of the play? I think folding to 2 cold was right considering the OC and paired board, but even so, I still am at a loss with these hands.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $0.50. MP3 posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) calls, MP3 (poster) calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (15 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, CO calls, UTG folds, Hero folds, MP1 calls.

River: (16 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB

[J. Sawyer]

thats a definitate fold on the turn.

[adsman]

I never check this turn. And I win with TT-22 without flopping a set all the time.

[Dave G.]

I'd check the flop and see what happens, I'd probably check/call one (because the pot will probably justify trying to spike your T). If it's two to you fold.

If the pot were smaller, this would be a check/fold. You're almost certainly not good here; there's 6 other people in the hand with you! The chance that one of them has a jack is very high, leaving you drawing to 2 outs. Additionally, there's a flush draw on the board... your chances of actually winning from here are very small.

That being said, if you're ahead on the flop, you're probably still ahead on the turn. Betting the flop but not betting the turn makes no sense. There has to be a reason for your play. Why did you bet the flop if you weren't going to follow up to this very safe turn?

When it's 2 back to you on the turn it's a turbomuck.

[DrunkHamster]

The board paired - if people were calling with ANY part of the board, I am now screwed. Plus, if I bet, and it came back 2 to me I would have to fold anyway, so I thought I would check, and evaluate my options.

[Dave G.]

It's true that someone could have a 3 and you just got screwed. However, I don't think a 3 is all that likely, and there are much worse cards that could have come for your hand. I would still bet the turn if I thought I had the best hand on the flop.

Would you bet the turn if there were no J on the board? If so then you should bet here, because your flop bet says 'I don't believe anyone has a J'.

[DrunkHamster]

I see what you're getting at - I probably should have checked the flop. I just didn't really want to give any chances for free cards. On the turn, again, with 6 people still around, I was pretty sure my hand was no good, so thats when I checked. If, on the turn, its 1 back to you, what is your play? I really need to get these hands sorted out in my head.

[DrunkHamster]

OK adsman, is it possible for you to show me some hands where you have mid PPs like this, multiple callers, overcards on the flop, and where you still win? I would really like to see how you play them, as I feel it is one of my biggest leaks at the moment.

PS, are you Australian? If so, from an Englishman, I'm sorry about how things are going /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Fantam]

I wouldnt hate medium pocket pairs. Even if you dont flop a set, they will still sometimes hold up. Although I agree that wont happen as often in a multiway pot.

I dont think that I would have bet on this flop, because anyone with weak hands like middle or bottom pair, gut-shots and possibly even a single overcard would still have been getting decent odds to call with 16 or more sb in the pot. You also save yourself a small bet if the turn card is unfavourable.

So I would have preferred to wait until the turn to see whether a blank fell. (unfortunately with 6 opponents, the board pairing was not a blank)

So if the flop had been checked through and a blank fell on the turn, I would have preferred to bet then. Alternatively if a late positon player bet the flop, you could have attempted a check-raise on the turn if a blank fell.

As the turn card was unfavourable and there was an OC, I agree with your decision to fold to the turn 2-bet.

[Dave G.]

It depends on the pot. If I'm getting enough odds to spike a T, I'm calling, otherwise I'm done with the hand. Even calling for one isn't much good when you're very surely beaten.

Mid PPs like this can win without sets, but I think against this field, it's not going to happen very often, particularly with the overcard. You'd be surprised, though. I once had KJs win with just a pair of jacks against 6 other people and a massive, huge pot at 2/4. My kicker didn't play, I had the only pair of jacks.

PS, Glen Mcgrath will be fully fit for the next one... and you guys will be sorry, oh yes, very very sorry. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[gopnik]

why did you check the turn?

and yes, fold to 2 bets

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
OK adsman, is it possible for you to show me some hands where you have mid PPs like this, multiple callers, overcards on the flop, and where you still win?

[/ QUOTE ]

By betting on the flop you showed that you weren't too worried about a J. In an unraised pot this would be incorrect as most players would raise with an A,K,Q combination preflop, meaning that a J high flop would have probably hit someone. But this is a raised pot with 4 cold-callers, (great table). BUT, two of the cold-callers posted so they could literally have anything. So on this hand I think there's a good chance that you're stuffed, (due to the two posters), but normally in a raised pot preflop I would bet this all the time. The 3 would thus be a good card as you're looking at whiffed overcards. Here it's not so great but I still follow up anyway.

PP's are hugely under-rated. If you can get them HU they can win a lot of the time. Look for paired boards. 33 on a 885 board against 2 oppoents can be easily won if the right card comes on the Turn. It takes experience and selective aggression but you're giving away too much if you throw away PP's every time you don't hit a set.

[ QUOTE ]
PS, are you Australian? If so, from an Englishman, I'm sorry about how things are going /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are a very long way from winning the ashes. A lot further than you think. Because you're Poms. And Poms are good at one thing. Choking. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[teajay]

I would lead this turn. If it comes back to me two, then I'll fold. If I get raised, I'm calling down no more than one bet against unknowns.

[Buckmulligan]

Call me weak, but I check/fold this turn. Betting seems spewy to me.

[DrunkHamster]

Thanks for the clarification, I do need some practise with PPs. I know they are underrated, but I still have trouble with them, especially when overcards fall.

I didn't know there were so many Aussies around! Its gonna make it even more fun when we take back the ashes (for the first time since I've been into cricket as well). You guys lucked out yesterday, if it didn't rain we might've had a real match. Your only hope now is to do a rain dance tonight /images/graemlins/grin.gif