I have aces and don't know what to do

[Nick C]

I have numbers on MP1 now, but I didn't really at the time. I'd been at the table for a couple of orbits, and she hadn't really caught my attention that much.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 caps</font>, Hero calls.

<font color="#0000FF">I considered just calling the preflop raise, but I decided the hell with it and went ahead and 3-bet.</font>

Flop: (8.40 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

<font color="#0000FF">I didn't like the flop a whole lot, versus someone who capped preflop. I decided just to check and call and see what the turn brought. I hadn't really decided what to do on a blank.</font>

Turn: (5.20 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

<font color="#0000FF">The turn card didn't cheer me up any. It's not exactly a blank, and I didn't have the ace of clubs.</font>

River: (7.20 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

<font color="#0000FF">Maybe a Clarkmeister would be good here, but I had trouble finding one. At the time, it didn't seem like the right spot for such a play, but I don't know.</font>

Final Pot: 9.20 BB

Help!

[ArturiusX]

Bet the flop?

[Jeff W]

Check-raise the flop.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess maybe, but how do the hands we're ahead of react to this? AK is 6 combos; AQ is another 6. Then there are the pocket pairs, but will any of them besides KK/QQ like the flop? I'm not sure AQ likes the flop a whole lot either.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay.

If MP1 3-bets, or if she calls the flop checkraise and then raises the turn, then what?

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
I have aces and don't know what to do

[/ QUOTE ]
Not that.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
If MP1 3-bets, or if she calls the flop checkraise and then raises the turn, then what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Use a stop&amp;go line here. Check-raise flop, bet-call turn, bet-call river. Or, check-raise-call flop, bet-call turn, check-call river. Basically, you don't want to go more than 6 bets.

[psyduck]

lead/3-bet the flop

I think you can 3-bet the turn as well, but then call down if he caps.

What's the problem? Were you trying to extract max value by intending to go for a check-raise on the turn, but then chickened out or something??

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If MP1 3-bets, or if she calls the flop checkraise and then raises the turn, then what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Use a stop&amp;go line here. Check-raise flop, bet-call turn, bet-call river. Or, check-raise-call flop, bet-call turn, check-call river. Basically, you don't want to go more than 6 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this sounds reasonable to me.

But how do the club-heavy cards that actually fell change things?

This isn't a river I'm crazy about bet-calling, for instance.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have aces and don't know what to do

[/ QUOTE ]
Not that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this hand isn't really my proudest hold'em moment or anything.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this sounds reasonable to me.

But how do the club-heavy cards that actually fell change things?

This isn't a river I'm crazy about bet-calling, for instance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you can figure out the rest. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the problem? Were you trying to extract max value by intending to go for a check-raise on the turn, but then chickened out or something??

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't sure what I was doing. The third club annoyed me, to say the least.

Suddenly, A /images/graemlins/club.gif K, JJ /images/graemlins/club.gif, and TT /images/graemlins/club.gif gained a lot of outs, A /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif just outdrew me, and I'm crushed by KK/QQ (as I was on the flop).

After my flop check-call, I'd consider bet-calling the turn, but the 3/6 opponents I'm accustomed to generally wouldn't check behind with outs anyway.

Things could be different at 5/10, but I'm not used to that limit yet.

Edit: So, as a result of this thinking, I'm thinking I like Jeff W's flop checkraise plan. I'm thinking this doesn't seem like a flop where you want to wait until the turn to make a move. Like I mentioned somewhere in this thread, I wasn't sure what my turn plan was when I check-called the flop, but just going ahead and checkraising the flop does seem superior to me now to whatever I (vaguely) had in mind at the time.

[mack848]

I think that your flop check is the biggest problem here. Most opponents will bet this flop with AK, AQ, JJ (poss TT) here. By not bet/3 betting or check/raising you give away the initiative and have no idea how strong she is.

If you assign her a 'normal' hand range that caps pre-flop - AA-JJ, AK, say - you are ahead of AK (6 combos), JJ (6 combos); and crushed by KK and QQ (3 combos each).

Even if this player doesn't cap JJ, you are at worst even money.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that your flop check is the biggest problem here. Most opponents will bet this flop with AK, AQ, JJ (poss TT) here. By not bet/3 betting or check/raising you give away the initiative and have no idea how strong she is.

If you assign her a 'normal' hand range that caps pre-flop - AA-JJ, AK, say - you are ahead of AK (6 combos), JJ (6 combos); and crushed by KK and QQ (3 combos each).

Even if this player doesn't cap JJ, you are at worst even money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm thinking now that she's going to bet the flop when checked to (I'd imagine that happens at 5/10 as well as at 3/6).

So I think I like Jeff W's flop checkraise plan, since I'm probably ahead.

The drawback that I see is that in theory this could push my opponent off of JJ (or the less likely TT or lower pocket pair).

And I guess that's the part I'm not sure about. But the pot would have gotten big enough (after my checkraise) that it's only if my opponent held a clubless lower pocket pair that I'd mind a flop fold, really (and even then, it wouldn't be a tragedy, given the set/backdoor straight potential of JJ/TT, though I do have two of the aces).

[tansoku]

I 3 bet this pflop every time.
So which line defines her hand?
I think a set smooth calls a flop bet and raises the turn.
AQ/AJs probably just calls a flop bet since you 3bet pflop and might have AA/KK/QQ.
I think a set or the flush are the only hands that would raise the turn. If it's a semibluff raise with A/images/graemlins/club.gif K good for her.
So, I think bet the flop, lead the turn and fold to a raise.
I guess the question would be what to do with a flop raise.

Board: Qd 5c Kc
Dead:
Hand 1: 62.4892 % { AhAd }
Hand 2: 37.5108 % { AA-JJ, AKs-AQs, AKo }

Hand 1: 59.4093 % { AhAd }
Hand 2: 40.5907 % { AA-JJ, AKs-AQs, KQs, AKo }

Pokerstove says we are ahead here, even with KQs in her hand range.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I 3 bet this pflop every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that this is the best default play. And, in any event, I was happy when MP1 went ahead and capped.

[ QUOTE ]
So which line defines her hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure any line defines MP1's hand that well, and it didn't help any that she was unknown to me at the time.

Some hands I'm ahead of on the flop (AK/A /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif) are going to like the flop.

Also, I didn't know whether she was the type to fastplay or slowplay a set, heads-up.

[ QUOTE ]
I think a set smooth calls a flop bet and raises the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is definitely going to happen if I'm up against a flopped set, but it certainly is a possibility.

Part of my problem during the hand was that I'm not very familiar yet with how 5/10 plays.

[ QUOTE ]
AQ/AJs probably just calls a flop bet since you 3bet pflop and might have AA/KK/QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think A /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif specifically might raise, and I'm not ruling out a raise from AQ. But I do think there's a good chance AQ/AJs is just calling a flop bet, when MP1 would have bet those hands if checked to anyway. It's part of the reason I checked. (Another reason, and a worse one, is that I was overestimating my chances of being behind.) Anyway, though, I now think checking the flop and then not following up with a checkraise was probably bad. If MP1 happens to have JJ/TT and decides to fold it when I checkraise (this is something I was worried about), well, that's not something I should mind all that much, in a pot that would by that time contain 11 SB's. Plus, I doubt MP1 is folding the J /images/graemlins/club.gif or T /images/graemlins/club.gif (though I think I'd like for her to).

[ QUOTE ]
I think a set or the flush are the only hands that would raise the turn. If it's a semibluff raise with A/images/graemlins/club.gif K good for her.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a turn raise from A /images/graemlins/club.gif K (3 combos) would be all that rare. MP1 might not even be thinking of such a raise as a semibluff, exactly, since MP1 could reasonably have the best hand and also could be freerolling versus my AK.

[ QUOTE ]
So, I think bet the flop, lead the turn and fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I think my hand may be too good for a turn bet-fold, especially against an unknown. I'm crushed by KK/QQ (6 combos), and there are a small number of reasonable made flush possibilities too, but I think I'm ahead a fair amount of the time, even after the turn raise.

But, as I mentioned, I don't really know 5/10 yet.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the question would be what to do with a flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I led the flop and got raised, I think I like a 3-bet. Given the intimidated way I was playing last night, though, I suspect I would have just called.

[ QUOTE ]
Board: Qd 5c Kc
Dead:
Hand 1: 62.4892 % { AhAd }
Hand 2: 37.5108 % { AA-JJ, AKs-AQs, AKo }

Hand 1: 59.4093 % { AhAd }
Hand 2: 40.5907 % { AA-JJ, AKs-AQs, KQs, AKo }

Pokerstove says we are ahead here, even with KQs in her hand range.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was overestimating my chances of being behind. I was, for instance, discounting AK (because of the preflop cap) more than I probably should have been. And partly this is the result of my taking my 3/6 experiences with me to 5/10 tables.

[tansoku]

[ QUOTE ]

I think A /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif specifically might raise,

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but do you think it would cap pflop?

[ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I think my hand may be too good for a turn bet-fold, especially against an unknown....But, as I mentioned, I don't really know 5/10 yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be playing higher than this anyway...

Yeah the no reads part sucks don't it? Someone, and I don't remember who, said very few players will raise the turn 'without the goods' in the small stakes games.
[ QUOTE ]

If I led the flop and got raised, I think I like a 3-bet. Given the intimidated way I was playing last night, though, I suspect I would have just called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet another form of tilt...when I start doing this I drop down in limits until I get my mojo back (assuming of course I had/have any to begin with /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

They way you played this hand, if I'm villain, I think you have TT-JJ without a /images/graemlins/club.gif
But I suck at hand reading..

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
You should be playing higher than this anyway...

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the way I was playing last night, I shouldn't.

(But thanks.)

[Nick C]

All right, so I'm about to head to the tables, but before I do that, I thought I'd bump this thread by posting the results -- partly just to shame myself into playing better tonight.

Anyway, CO had J /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the flush.

And I should have lost more money to her during this hand.

Thanks for the responses.