Cell Phones While Driving [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

mason55

08-14-2005, 01:51 AM

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I will go out on a limb and wager that: 1) Passengers tend to respect the driver's need to concentrate more than cell phone conversation participants do, and 2) Far more talking is done on cells in the States than to passengers, since few cars on the road have any.

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/images/graemlins/confused.gif So since fewer people do it, it's ok? And because the passenger _MIGHT_ respect the driver? Have you ever seen a deaf driver/passenger SIGNING to each other while driving? That should definitely be outlawed. And I bet that the same people that can't pay attention to the road on a cell phone have that problem with a passenger too.

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Yes, this is horrible, this idea.

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cadillac1234

08-14-2005, 01:54 AM

A conversation is a conversation...Does it matter if someone is in the car or not? What if the passanger is in the backseat?

If you can't handle talking and driving at the same time you shouldn't have a driver's license anyways. In fact, I suggest that DMV should make it mandatory to test new driver's while they talk on their cellphones.

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 01:55 AM

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Have you ever seen a deaf driver/passenger SIGNING to each other while driving? That should definitely be outlawed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must congratulate you on the single most idiotic statement I've seen on here all week. And that's saying a lot.

mason55

08-14-2005, 01:59 AM

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Have you ever seen a deaf driver/passenger SIGNING to each other while driving? That should definitely be outlawed.

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I must congratulate you on the single most idiotic statement I've seen on here all week. And that's saying a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif You think it's safe for the driver to have both hands off the wheel and his eyes on the passenger while he's driving yet you want all cell phone conversations outlawed?

razor

08-14-2005, 02:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A conversation is a conversation...Does it matter if someone is in the car or not? What if the passanger is in the backseat?

[/ QUOTE ]

oh please people... having to listen and concentrate to someone over the phone is significantly different than listening to someone live. It's NOT the same thing.

That said, if conversations with passengers is distracting that you should stop talking to them while driving as well.

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 02:01 AM

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If you can't handle talking and driving at the same time you shouldn't have a driver's license anyways.

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Considering that over 40,000 people will die in car crashes this year in the U.S., I agree, n00b, that a hell of a lot of people have driver's licenses who should not.

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 02:01 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
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Have you ever seen a deaf driver/passenger SIGNING to each other while driving? That should definitely be outlawed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must congratulate you on the single most idiotic statement I've seen on here all week. And that's saying a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif You think it's safe for the driver to have both hands off the wheel and his eyes on the passenger while he's driving yet you want all cell phone conversations outlawed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you a moron, or just a [censored] troll?

08-14-2005, 02:05 AM

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I saw in another thread the oft-cited opinion that hands-free cell phone sets, used while driving, "Give all of the benefits with none of the drawbacks."

This is wrong.

The problem with cell phones while driving isn't hand mobility, it's distraction. Particularly, if the conversation is a charged one that puts the driver into an emotional state, while he or she is behind the wheel.

Cell phones used while driving should be banned. Immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct, and I would think most people would admit this.

mason55

08-14-2005, 02:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Have you ever seen a deaf driver/passenger SIGNING to each other while driving? That should definitely be outlawed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must congratulate you on the single most idiotic statement I've seen on here all week. And that's saying a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif You think it's safe for the driver to have both hands off the wheel and his eyes on the passenger while he's driving yet you want all cell phone conversations outlawed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you a moron, or just a [censored] troll?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well since I'm serious I must be a moron. Explain how talking on a cell phone headset is more dangerous than signing while driving.

Are you trying to say this doesn't happen? My school shared a campus with National Technical Institute for the Deaf, so we had deaf people everywhere. Have you ever seen someone try to drive while they sign? Every time I saw someone swerving or not paying attention, 10:1 it was because they were signing. All I'm saying is that if you think all cell phone conversations in a car should be outlawed then what about other much more dangerous things. This was just one example that quickly came to mind.

And you still haven't explained what the problem with it is.

cadillac1234

08-14-2005, 02:05 AM

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oh please people... having to listen and concentrate to someone over the phone is significantly different than listening to someone live. It's NOT the same thing.

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How much extra concentration are you exerting when you use the phone? I don't find it all that difficult to talk in the bottom part and listen to the top part...

peachy

08-14-2005, 02:06 AM

i drive completely fine talkin on mah phone...i can talk for 30 mins on windy roads and not remember a bit of the driving and have driven perfectly the whole time...it all depends on the person...i have no problem doin 2 things at once

New001

08-14-2005, 02:07 AM

I find that it's harder to concentrate on the conversation than it is to concentrate on driving.

People are morons anyway, talking on the cell phone while driving is the least of their worries.

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 02:07 AM

*ahem*

IMHO, the hearing-impaired, while driving, should definitely NOT try to carry on a conversation in sign language.

mason55

08-14-2005, 02:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
*ahem*

IMHO, the hearing-impaired, while driving, should definitely NOT try to carry on a conversation in sign language.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100% /images/graemlins/smile.gif But should we have a law against it? This seems much more dangerous than a cell phone. There are lots of other, much more dangerous things that people do in their cars. Trying to legislate them all away would be insane.

djj6835

08-14-2005, 02:16 AM

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Cell phones used while driving should be banned. Immediately.

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There are a variety of things that can destract a driver, not just cell phones. Whether it's talking to another passenger, changing the radio, eating, drinking, putting in a CD. It's up to the driver to decide what they can and can't do while driving. Just because come idiot isn't able to change the station on his radio without swerving into another lane, doesn't mean listening to the radio while driving should be banned. The same goes for using cell phones whiles driving.

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 02:18 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
*ahem*

IMHO, the hearing-impaired, while driving, should definitely NOT try to carry on a conversation in sign language.

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Agree 100% /images/graemlins/smile.gif But should we have a law against it? This seems much more dangerous than a cell phone. There are lots of other, much more dangerous things that people do in their cars. Trying to legislate them all away would be insane.

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No, it's not more dangerous, and Sklansky could explain why. For every deaf person who is stupid enough to try to sign to his passenger while driving, there are probably ten million or more people talking on cell phones while driving, thus making the danger to society far greater.

I'd like to think I have more respect for people who happen to be deaf than that. But, if you think this is a widespread problem, then hey. Those persons are so [censored] stupid they will probably take themselves out in some sort of Darwinian flameout anyway. Hopefully they won't take an innocent person with them.

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 02:20 AM

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Cell phones used while driving should be banned. Immediately.

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There are a variety of things that can destract a driver, not just cell phones. Whether it's talking to another passenger, changing the radio, eating, drinking, putting in a CD. It's up to the driver to decide what they can and can't do while driving. Just because come idiot isn't able to change the station on his radio without swerving into another lane, doesn't mean listening to the radio while driving should be banned. The same goes for using cell phones whiles driving.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually had a friend who died exactly that way (looking for a CD while driving). Very bad idea.

Brits, help me out. Is it not illegal in the UK to drive and talk on a cell? Isn't that what those pullouts are for?

razor

08-14-2005, 02:21 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
Cell phones used while driving should be banned. Immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are a variety of things that can destract a driver, not just cell phones. Whether it's talking to another passenger, changing the radio, eating, drinking, putting in a CD. It's up to the driver to decide what they can and can't do while driving. Just because come idiot isn't able to change the station on his radio without swerving into another lane, doesn't mean listening to the radio while driving should be banned. The same goes for using cell phones whiles driving.

[/ QUOTE ]

But just like <THAT WORD THAT CAN'T BE MENTIONED IN OOT>, most people think they are much better at driving then they really are. Most people can't drive competently at the best of times, I'd prefer not to have to rely on them making more correct decisions.

mason55

08-14-2005, 02:22 AM

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No, it's not more dangerous, and Sklansky could explain why. For every deaf person who is stupid enough to try to sign to his passenger while driving, there are probably ten million or more people talking on cell phones while driving, thus making the danger to society far greater.

I'd like to think I have more respect for people who happen to be deaf than that. But, if you think this is a widespread problem, then hey. Those persons are so [censored] stupid they will probably take themselves out in some sort of Darwinian flameout anyway. Hopefully they won't take an innocent person with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that it's not more dangerous to society as a whole (wasn't it Ray Zee that wrote the original spiel about frequency*severity though?[I could easily be wrong]). Anyways, looking at drivers as a whole, there are many actions that result in loss of attention. Eating, playing with the stereo, smoking cigarettes, talking to passengers, etc etc. It just seems crazy to go around making laws about all this stuff though.

This could easily be my libertarian bias though.

djj6835

08-14-2005, 02:24 AM

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Most people can't drive competently at the best of times, I'd prefer not to have to rely on them making more correct decisions.

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Very true. I'm just confused as to why people single out cell phones. People don't seem to be concerned with banning eating while driving, changing the radio station while driving, etc.

razor

08-14-2005, 02:31 AM

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oh please people... having to listen and concentrate to someone over the phone is significantly different than listening to someone live. It's NOT the same thing.

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How much extra concentration are you exerting when you use the phone?

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Next time you are in a public place, watch people talking on cell phones or pay phones... does their body language indicate they are trying to shield themselves from the ambient noise? do they seek quieter places to continue the phone conversation? If you are sitting in a somewhat noisey atmostphere talking with a group of friends, would you stay where you are to take a cell phone call? or find a quieter place?

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 02:34 AM

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Most people can't drive competently at the best of times, I'd prefer not to have to rely on them making more correct decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very true. I'm just confused as to why people single out cell phones. People don't seem to be concerned with banning eating while driving, changing the radio station while driving, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll tell you why. And for the record, I'm a Libertarian myself.

I'm a bicycle commuter. I have lots of occasions to watch drivers while I'm waiting on breaks in traffic. I've built up a pretty large sample size over the past year, in terms of the numbers of cars I've seen go by, while I'm actively watching them... though not scientifically counting.

The number of cars I see with a driver yakking on a cell phone is HUGE. It's almost like people wait until they're behind the wheel to talk on the thing.

Eating while driving is stupid. Putting on makeup, fiddling with the radio, all these things done while the car is in motion is frikkin insane. But they're activities that are done, then over. Cell conversations go on and on. The risk factor due strictly to the amount of time spent has got to be much, much higher.

Mark my words. The day will come when it is decided that the number of people killed in car wrecks caused by distracted cell-talking drivers is even greater than the number killed by drunk or otherwise chemically-impaired drivers.

New001

08-14-2005, 02:39 AM

You're comparing talking on your cell phone in your car with talking on your cell phone in a loud public place?

Obviously it's harder to do the latter. If you can't hear the other person, you can't carry on a conversation. It has nothing to do with concentrating.

Cell phones in cars are stupid, I don't do it, but with both hands on the wheel (or at least off the phone, with a handless set), it's really no different than talking to a passenger or dealing with kids in the back seat.

razor

08-14-2005, 02:41 AM

razor

08-14-2005, 02:48 AM

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You're comparing talking on your cell phone in your car with talking on your cell phone in a loud public place?

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NO!!!! I'm comparing talking to someone live vs. talking to someone on the phone. In my experience ambient noise isn't as much a factor in a live situation than when talking to someone on the phone.

In the public place scenerio I outlined... people are carrying on live conversations WITH LITTLE OR NO PROBLEM, while carrying on a phone conversation in the SAME LOCATION is CLEARLY more difficult. To carry on a phone conversation takes more concentration, and thus distracts you from whatever else you might be doing - which, when you are driving is not a good thing.

mblax10

08-14-2005, 03:20 AM

A person who can't talk on the phone and drive at the same time, probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.

I can drive, listen to the radio, talk on the phone, read a map, get dressed, eat breakfast all without missing a beat or decreasing my driving abilities.

What's next, giving out tickets for not having 2 hands on the wheel at 3 & 10? People who want cell phones in cars outlawed must have very short drives too and from work.

DasLeben

08-14-2005, 03:42 AM

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I can drive, listen to the radio, talk on the phone, read a map, get dressed, eat breakfast all without missing a beat or decreasing my driving abilities.

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I guarantee that your driving abilities while multitasking are adversely affected. Don't take that personally, since this is true for everyone.

mike4bmp

08-14-2005, 03:49 AM

In general I think people should be prohibited from talking on their cell phones while driving...since most accidents are caused by people not paying attention...i.e. reaching for a CD on the floor (or their ringing cell phone) or tuning the radio...cell phones are just another distraction. At the very least the law should require for you to use a hands free set....
Mike...out

cnfuzzd

08-14-2005, 06:04 AM

while your assesment of the situation is probably correct, its doubtful that your criticisms while ever have any real-life effects. Simply put, people drive badly, and dont focus much. Now, stop bitching about it.

peace

john nickle

youtalkfunny

08-14-2005, 06:23 AM

I can carry conversation with passengers.

When I hang up my cellphone, I often find that I've driven past my destination, and cannot recall anything of the last few miles I have driven.

So I agree that phones are more distracting, probably because they require more concentration.

If this has already been said here, I apologize. I tried to read the thread, but the flaming in the first ten posts got too hot to fight through.

cnfuzzd

08-14-2005, 06:24 AM

ok, when you hit someone, make sure its someone talking on a cellphone, that way its ironic....

peace

john nickle

Yeti

08-14-2005, 07:57 AM

This is the first thread in a long time I've read on OOT, where I've come away thinking 'Jeez, some of these people are a lot dumber than I realised.'

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 11:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]

When I hang up my cellphone, I often find that I've driven past my destination, and cannot recall anything of the last few miles I have driven.

If this has already been said here, I apologize. I tried to read the thread, but the flaming in the first ten posts got too hot to fight through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Peachy said much the same thing.

But thanks for not claiming you drive perfectly, even though you can't remember actually doing it. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

08-14-2005, 11:13 AM

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Most people can't drive competently at the best of times, I'd prefer not to have to rely on them making more correct decisions.

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Very true. I'm just confused as to why people single out cell phones. People don't seem to be concerned with banning eating while driving, changing the radio station while driving, etc.

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Because it's new and can reasonably be banned and enforced, without too much public dissension. You cannot reasonably ban someone from talking to his/her passenger, nor can that be reasonably enforced, for example.

Another issue is not whether other things are also dangerous. The issue is whether talking on a cell phone while driving is dangerous. One cannot reasonably argue that it is not. Take a look every time someone on the road does something questionable. You will be astonished as to how many of them are talking on phones.

And to "cnfuzzed", who told the OP to "quit whining" because his complaints will fall on deaf ears -- this is false. Several states already have some sort of bans on use of cell phones while driving, and such bans are being discussed in many other states (whether they ultimately will pass is another question). Keep complaining. Use of cell phones while driving is a dangerous epidemic that needs to be stopped.

Clarkmeister

08-14-2005, 11:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Most people can't drive competently at the best of times, I'd prefer not to have to rely on them making more correct decisions.

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Very true. I'm just confused as to why people single out cell phones. People don't seem to be concerned with banning eating while driving, changing the radio station while driving, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mainly because people don't know that talking on a cell phone while driving takes more concentration then they realize...

I also see many more people talking on cell phones while driving than eating.

I don't like eating or drinking while driving, part of that may be that I'm just not as good at doing multi-tasking as others. But, it is also because I pay more attention on what's going on around me while driving than 90% of drivers.

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So your distraction is looking into every other car and seeing what the drivers are doing. Gee, that's so much safer than talking on a phone.

DasLeben

08-14-2005, 12:00 PM

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So your distraction is looking into every other car and seeing what the drivers are doing. Gee, that's so much safer than talking on a phone.

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I've barely been in this debate, but this is one of the worst arguments I've seen yet. Of course you're going to see what the other drivers are doing, unless of course, you're staring straight down the road with tunnel vision.

Clarkmeister

08-14-2005, 12:06 PM

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So your distraction is looking into every other car and seeing what the drivers are doing. Gee, that's so much safer than talking on a phone.

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I've barely been in this debate, but this is one of the worst arguments I've seen yet. Of course you're going to see what the other drivers are doing, unless of course, you're staring straight down the road with tunnel vision.

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It's not an argument, it's an observation. And no, you don't necessarily need to see what the *driver* are doing, you need to see what the cars are doing.

I have no desire to debate it, but banning cell phone use in cars is ridiculous. Christ, I drove all the way to LA conducting work on a BlackBerry and had no problem driving safely. How much easier is a cell? Hey, let's just outlaw cars, that would stop all the car-related deaths. Speed limits of 40mph would too, if we can't outlaw those damn cars, why not just cut the speed limit down to a crawl? I sure hope that the ones who think cell phone use should be banned are against gun ownership as well. Bah, you are all a bunch of commies. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

razor

08-14-2005, 12:14 PM

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So your distraction is looking into every other car and seeing what the drivers are doing. Gee, that's so much safer than talking on a phone.

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And where in my posts do I say I do that? Come on Clark you're smarter than this...

razor

08-14-2005, 12:15 PM

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Bah, you are all a bunch of commies. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

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What did you expect? I'm Canadian.

chesspain

08-14-2005, 12:18 PM

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Cell phones used while driving should be banned. Immediately.

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citanul

08-14-2005, 01:02 PM

no scientific study of any type i've ever heard of has come to the conclusion that using a hands free, or non hands free cell phone is worse for people's driving than just having a conversation in the car, or any other form of distraction.

every scientific study i've ever seen on this subject has concluded that the level of distraction caused by hands-on cell phone use, hands-free cellphone use, and just talking to someone either in the seat next to you or the seat behind you, are identical.

citanul

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 01:20 PM

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Bah, you are all a bunch of commies. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

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I take issue with that sir.

One of the planks of the Libertarian philosophy is that you, or the government, should not be allowed to deprive me of my property or liberty by means of force. I, in turn, should be allowed to use force to protect myself, my family, and my property.

Nobody has the right to deprive me of reasonable safety because they aren't concentrating on their driving.

I guess I should be allowed to shoot the next person who pulls in front of me because he or she was talking on the phone.

Mike Haven

08-14-2005, 01:38 PM

BBC Article: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1885775.stm)

"Talking on a mobile phone while driving is more dangerous than being over the legal alcohol limit, according to research.

"Tests by scientists at the Transport Research Laboratory said drivers on mobiles had slower reaction times and stopping times than those under the influence of alcohol.

"And it said hands-free kits were almost as dangerous as hand-held phones."

manpower

08-14-2005, 01:38 PM

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Bah, you are all a bunch of commies. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

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I take issue with that sir.

One of the planks of the Libertarian philosophy is that you, or the government, should not be allowed to deprive me of my property or liberty by means of force. I, in turn, should be allowed to use force to protect myself, my family, and my property.

Nobody has the right to deprive me of reasonable safety because they aren't concentrating on their driving.

I guess I should be allowed to shoot the next person who pulls in front of me because he or she was talking on the phone.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, this sounds like a pretty warped interpretation of the philosophy. Libertarians are almost unilaterally against cell phone driving bans. Not to even get into all the stuff about personal liberty and responsibility...

Warik

08-14-2005, 01:44 PM

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The problem with cell phones while driving isn't hand mobility, it's distraction.

Cell phones used while driving should be banned. Immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree completely. There are far more distracting that can go on in an automobile that aren't banned.

I've been using a cell phone ever since I started driving. There are times I spend 5 minutes on the phone when driving somewhere, other times (like yesterday) that I spend 30. With and without a handsfree set.

Do YOU have trouble focusing when you're talking on the phone and driving? I'd imagine you don't... bad drivers are bad drivers. Taking cellphones away from them will not help them drive better and will only take away a right/privilege (whatever you want to call it) that good drivers have.

I would, however, support an addition to the driver license test to see if the driver is competent enough to use a cell phone while driving, then put that restriction on his license. =)

Warik

08-14-2005, 01:53 PM

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"Talking on a mobile phone while driving is more dangerous than being over the legal alcohol limit, according to research.

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The study, which was sponsored by insurer Direct Line, involved a panel of 20 volunteers using a driving simulator.

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Did the article happen to mention it's 99% margin of error? I find that claim to be absurd. Most of the population can't even WALK when above the legal limit, and you're telling me they drive better than a completely sober cellphone user? No way.

Mike Haven

08-14-2005, 02:19 PM

For some reason, (using left side of brain; right ear; whatever), most people focus a lot of attention on listening to telephone conversations, in terms of reducing attention on their immediate surroundings.

As an experiment, next time anyone is on the 'phone in your presence, start asking them simple questions while they are chatting. You can see them literally gazing off into the distance and unintentionally almost ignoring you.

It's an amazing but true phenomom phenonon phemomo thing.

manpower

08-14-2005, 02:52 PM

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Most of the population can't even WALK when above the legal limit

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe that this is an incorrect statement.

08-14-2005, 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with cell phones while driving isn't hand mobility, it's distraction.

Cell phones used while driving should be banned. Immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree completely. There are far more distracting that can go on in an automobile that aren't banned.

I've been using a cell phone ever since I started driving. There are times I spend 5 minutes on the phone when driving somewhere, other times (like yesterday) that I spend 30. With and without a handsfree set.

Do YOU have trouble focusing when you're talking on the phone and driving? I'd imagine you don't... bad drivers are bad drivers. Taking cellphones away from them will not help them drive better and will only take away a right/privilege (whatever you want to call it) that good drivers have.

I would, however, support an addition to the driver license test to see if the driver is competent enough to use a cell phone while driving, then put that restriction on his license. =)

[/ QUOTE ]

This argument is ridiculous. I doubt anybody disputes that there are a drivers that can drive effectively while distracted by a cell phone. But there are too many drivers who cannot drive effectively while yapping on a cell phone. It is dangerous. And the imposition on the public -- not being able to talk on a cell phone while driving -- is minimal. For Christ's sake, we lived for 80 years without the ability to talk on the phone while driving.

Warik

08-14-2005, 03:08 PM

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As an experiment, next time anyone is on the 'phone in your presence, start asking them simple questions while they are chatting. You can see them literally gazing off into the distance and unintentionally almost ignoring you.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's probably because listening to a question involves use of your sense of hearing, while talking on the phone also involves your sense of hearing.

Driving (primarily) involves your sense of sight.

Try watching a movie and reading a book at the same time. You'll it pretty difficult to concentrate on one or the other.

08-14-2005, 03:20 PM

Driving and talking is about as hard as walking and chewing gum. And what better time to get in a heated arguement than when you are sitting in rush hour traffic pissed as [censored]?

newfant

08-14-2005, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

The problem with cell phones while driving isn't hand mobility, it's distraction.

Cell phones used while driving should be banned. Immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree completely. There are far more distracting that can go on in an automobile that aren't banned.

I've been using a cell phone ever since I started driving. There are times I spend 5 minutes on the phone when driving somewhere, other times (like yesterday) that I spend 30. With and without a handsfree set.

Do YOU have trouble focusing when you're talking on the phone and driving? I'd imagine you don't... bad drivers are bad drivers. Taking cellphones away from them will not help them drive better and will only take away a right/privilege (whatever you want to call it) that good drivers have.

I would, however, support an addition to the driver license test to see if the driver is competent enough to use a cell phone while driving, then put that restriction on his license. =)

[/ QUOTE ]

This argument is ridiculous. I doubt anybody disputes that there are a drivers that can drive effectively while distracted by a cell phone. But there are too many drivers who cannot drive effectively while yapping on a cell phone. It is dangerous. And the imposition on the public -- not being able to talk on a cell phone while driving -- is minimal. For Christ's sake, we lived for 80 years without the ability to talk on the phone while driving.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to wonder what all the fuss was about over people driving while talking on cell phones. I didn't do it personally, but it didn't seem like it would be a problem for most drivers.

Then I was almost creamed by a guy towing a large trailer. We were in two parallel lanes going the same direction and I was about to pass him in the left lane. Right before I pulled up next to him, he swerved about two feet into my lane. I had to put on the brakes to keep from hitting him. This was during the middle of the day, but I figured he must be drunk or something. He eventually meandered back into his lane and I darted around him. As I passed him, I looked at him and he was totally engrossed in a cell phone conversation. I don't think he had any idea that he had been in my lane or that my car was next to his truck as I passed. If he would have been asked later, he would probably say that he could drive fine while on a cell phone because he probably had no idea that he had almost caused a wreck.

Ever since then I have been in favor of banning the use of cell phones while driving. I would equate it to driving while drunk. There is something about talking on a cell phone that is way more distracting to drivers than talking to a passenger.

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 03:55 PM

As I said above, and I'll repeat: I notice this more than most drivers do, because I bicycle in traffic. I have to stop often to allow traffic to clear. You would be astounded to see how many drivers are talking on the phone.

Take a lunch hour, or you college kids, write a paper: Hang out at a busy intersection for an hour, and check out the proportion of people talking on cells while driving. Just look at those turning right, at the corner you're on. It's incredible.

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 03:59 PM

From The Insurance Information Institute: (http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/insurance/cellphones/)

RECENT DEVELOPMENTS

* Studies: Motorists who use cell phones while driving are four times as likely to get into crashes serious enough to injure themselves, according to a study of drivers in Perth, Australia, conducted by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. The results, published in July, 2005, suggest that banning hand-held phone use won't necessarily improve safety if drivers simply switch to hands-free phones. The study found that injury crash risk didn't vary with type of phone.

* A government study released in June 2005 indicates that the distraction of cell phones and other wireless devices was far more likely to lead to crashes than other distractions faced by drivers. Researchers for the Virginia Tech Transportation Institute ....

Oh, crap. Mason's own alma mater agrees.

Better talk while you can. Your days of it are numbered.

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 04:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Libertarians are almost unilaterally against cell phone driving bans.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't find any postion one way or the other on the party website.

I don't like being told how to behave by the government.

I don't like even more, being put at risk by the legions of mouthbreathers out there CPWD (Cell Phoning While Driving).

poboy

08-14-2005, 04:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Cell phones used while driving should be banned. Immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree 100% with this statement. Of course I also run a collision repair facility. You probably wouldn't be too surprised at all if I said more than 50% of the cars I repair are the result of people talking on cell phones while driving. This is just a rough estimate as I do not keep any record of this but I don't think I am too far off. I believe cell-phone users and the overly-cautious driver(aka the elderly) are the biggest causes of traffic accidents by far. JMO

TheCroShow

08-14-2005, 04:24 PM

Wow, OP is onto something. WHy hasn't anyone thought of this before?????

razor

08-14-2005, 04:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As an experiment, next time anyone is on the 'phone in your presence, start asking them simple questions while they are chatting. You can see them literally gazing off into the distance and unintentionally almost ignoring you.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's probably because listening to a question involves use of your sense of hearing, while talking on the phone also involves your sense of hearing.

Driving (primarily) involves your sense of sight.

[/ QUOTE ]

listening to a question on your cell phone involves the additional distraction of having to filter out ambient noise.

I am quite willing to concede that I am not as able multi-task as well as many people. However, on the 2 or 3 times I have used my cell phone while driving I found it distracting and uncomfortable. I have NEVER had a problem having a discussion with others in the car while driving. In my experience the difference is SIGNIFICANT. To use a 2+2 cliche... it's not even close.

In my experience, I have observed that I am not the only one that has difficulty dealing with ambient noise while talking on a phone.

mason55

08-14-2005, 04:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[b]Virginia Tech Transportation Institute ....[/b

Oh, crap. Mason's own alma mater agrees.

Better talk while you can. Your days of it are numbered.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif I definitely didn't go to Va. Tech. If you're curious I went to Rochester Institute of Technology

Clarkmeister

08-14-2005, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bah, you are all a bunch of commies. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I take issue with that sir.

One of the planks of the Libertarian philosophy is that you, or the government, should not be allowed to deprive me of my property or liberty by means of force. I, in turn, should be allowed to use force to protect myself, my family, and my property.

Nobody has the right to deprive me of reasonable safety because they aren't concentrating on their driving.

I guess I should be allowed to shoot the next person who pulls in front of me because he or she was talking on the phone.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, this sounds like a pretty warped interpretation of the philosophy. Libertarians are almost unilaterally against cell phone driving bans. Not to even get into all the stuff about personal liberty and responsibility...

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Sounds more like the philosophy of a 20 year old than the philosophy of a true Libertarian. I stick with commie.

Warik

08-14-2005, 05:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In my experience, I have observed that I am not the only one that has difficulty dealing with ambient noise while talking on a phone.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I can't relate since I have no difficulty whatsoever. I can drive & talk on the phone. I can walk and chew gum (blow bubbles too). [censored] - I can play _ _ _ _ _ and watch a DVD on my other monitor or read a book at the same time.

It all goes down to the basics of being a responsible adult. If you CAN multitask, feel free. If you CANNOT, then don't.

All-encompassing laws like this hurt a society. They don't help it. Punish people for being irresponsible... if I can drive and talk on the phone better than half the population can drive WITHOUT being on the phone (I live in Florida... nuff said), then why should I be punished for their inadequacies?

Think about it: How many things can YOU do with no risk to yourself and to others that happen to be illegal due to other peoples' incompetence? Is that fair to you? No.

Heck, how many single white males under 25 pay inflated auto insurance premiums because other idiots in their same category don't know how to drive?

Mason Hellmuth

08-14-2005, 05:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As an experiment, next time anyone is having a conversation in your presence, start asking them simple questions while they are chatting. You can see them literally gazing off into the distance and unintentionally almost ignoring you, because it's [censored] rude to interrupt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason Hellmuth

08-14-2005, 05:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But there are too many drivers who cannot drive automobiles effectively. It is dangerous. And the imposition on the public -- not being able to drive automobiles -- is minimal. For Christ's sake, we lived for 10,000 years without the ability to drive automobiles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason Hellmuth

08-14-2005, 06:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In my experience, I have observed that I am not the only one that has difficulty dealing with ambient noise while talking on a phone.

[/ QUOTE ]
We're still talking about talking on cell phones using hands-free devices, right? So let me ask you this. If a hands-free device could reproduce the other person's voice as loudly and clearly as if he was sitting in the passenger's seat, would you support banning its use?

Mason Hellmuth

08-14-2005, 06:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Virginia Tech Transportation Institute ....

Oh, crap. Mason's own alma mater agrees.

Better talk while you can. Your days of it are numbered.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif I definitely didn't go to Va. Tech. If you're curious I went to Rochester Institute of Technology

[/ QUOTE ]
I also did not go to Virginia Tech. I demand you cease and desist this libel at once.

GuyOnTilt

08-14-2005, 06:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't handle talking and driving at the same time you shouldn't have a driver's license anyways. In fact, I suggest that DMV should make it mandatory to test new driver's while they talk on their cellphones.

[/ QUOTE ]

The state of California made it illegal to drive while talking on a cell phone without a handsfree device, effective sometime in early 2005, FWIW.

GoT

KingOtter

08-14-2005, 06:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Libertarians are almost unilaterally against cell phone driving bans.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't find any postion one way or the other on the party website.

I don't like being told how to behave by the government.

I don't like even more, being put at risk by the legions of mouthbreathers out there CPWD (Cell Phoning While Driving).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be surprised if Libertarians are unilaterally against this.

First of all, driving is not a right, it's a privilege. Laws that infringe on the driving privilege having nothing to do with the basic rights of being an American, or their liberty.

Libertarians have a problem with laws that prohibit behavior of which there is no victim. The danger of cell-phone use while driving is certainly not victimless.

Meanwhile... although a libertarian myself, I'm no big fan of the banning of cell phones. In the trials I've read about the people with the cell-phones in their ear had to keep using it through the tests. That is, they weren't able to say 'Hang on', like most people do/can.

I would much rather see stricter driving exams, so that the drivers are more highly skilled, rather than making legistlation for the moronic masses. I would rather see drivers get more on-the-road training before getting their licenses. I'd like to see more education about making driving decisions (when is it a good time for event y, when should you wait a minute)

The problem is that 80% of peoples feelings about cellphone use is anecdotal. "I was on the road today and this idiot on a cellphone...." yada yada. Anecdotal evidence is not real evidence.

I don't doubt that cellphone use causes a lot of accidents. I also don't doubt that the average person talking on the phone on the road is a hazard. I'd like to see what steps we could take outside of an outright ban. I think banning is a knee-jerk, and "I can't think of anything better" type of solution to the real problem.

KO

KingOtter

08-14-2005, 06:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

When I hang up my cellphone, I often find that I've driven past my destination, and cannot recall anything of the last few miles I have driven.

If this has already been said here, I apologize. I tried to read the thread, but the flaming in the first ten posts got too hot to fight through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Peachy said much the same thing.

But thanks for not claiming you drive perfectly, even though you can't remember actually doing it. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't 'evidence'. I do the same thing, and I am very rarely on the phone in my car. I commuted 140 miles a day (round-trip) for a while, and oftentime I would 'wake up' and not remember the last 20 minutes or so.

KO

cadillac1234

08-14-2005, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you can't handle talking and driving at the same time you shouldn't have a driver's license anyways. In fact, I suggest that DMV should make it mandatory to test new driver's while they talk on their cellphones.

[/ QUOTE ]

The state of California made it illegal to drive while talking on a cell phone without a handsfree device, effective sometime in early 2005, FWIW.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

When did this happen? I've been breaking the law for quite a while now if it did go through.

GuyOnTilt

08-14-2005, 06:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you can't handle talking and driving at the same time you shouldn't have a driver's license anyways. In fact, I suggest that DMV should make it mandatory to test new driver's while they talk on their cellphones.

[/ QUOTE ]

The state of California made it illegal to drive while talking on a cell phone without a handsfree device, effective sometime in early 2005, FWIW.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

When did this happen? I've been breaking the law for quite a while now if it did go through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...I had this thought somewhere in the back of my brain about CA. Apparently I was wrong...I think. It looks like CA has made several pushes to make it a law, one bill looking to make it effective Jan 2005, and was passed and approved by the Governor, but is now ineffective? Also, I know CHP is very big on the idea of hands-free devices for cell phones and teaches their officers that hands-free >>> normal cell phone usage. I'm kind of finding unclear answers on searches, which makes me think it's not a law yet in California. Heh.

GoT

razor

08-14-2005, 07:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
We're still talking about talking on cell phones using hands-free devices, right? So let me ask you this. If a hands-free device could reproduce the other person's voice as loudly and clearly as if he was sitting in the passenger's seat, would you support banning its use?

[/ QUOTE ]

If one could hear the other person's voice clearly such that it took no extra concentration to pay attention to the conversation I wouldn't support a banning of their use.

Le Communiste Canadien

razor

08-14-2005, 07:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and oftentime I would 'wake up' and not remember the last 20 minutes or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

when this happens to me (very rarely) I consider it a bad thing... I feel like all I was doing was looking at what was going on immediately in front of me. All it feels like to me is that I'm not really paying attention.

Le Communiste Canadien

08-14-2005, 08:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In my experience, I have observed that I am not the only one that has difficulty dealing with ambient noise while talking on a phone.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I can't relate since I have no difficulty whatsoever. I can drive & talk on the phone. I can walk and chew gum (blow bubbles too). [censored] - I can play _ _ _ _ _ and watch a DVD on my other monitor or read a book at the same time.

It all goes down to the basics of being a responsible adult. If you CAN multitask, feel free. If you CANNOT, then don't.

All-encompassing laws like this hurt a society. They don't help it. Punish people for being irresponsible... if I can drive and talk on the phone better than half the population can drive WITHOUT being on the phone (I live in Florida... nuff said), then why should I be punished for their inadequacies?

Think about it: How many things can YOU do with no risk to yourself and to others that happen to be illegal due to other peoples' incompetence? Is that fair to you? No.

Heck, how many single white males under 25 pay inflated auto insurance premiums because other idiots in their same category don't know how to drive?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exchange "driving while talking on a cell phone" with "drunk driving" and then try to defend your argument.

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 08:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bah, you are all a bunch of commies. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I take issue with that sir.

One of the planks of the Libertarian philosophy is that you, or the government, should not be allowed to deprive me of my property or liberty by means of force. I, in turn, should be allowed to use force to protect myself, my family, and my property.

Nobody has the right to deprive me of reasonable safety because they aren't concentrating on their driving.

I guess I should be allowed to shoot the next person who pulls in front of me because he or she was talking on the phone.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, this sounds like a pretty warped interpretation of the philosophy. Libertarians are almost unilaterally against cell phone driving bans. Not to even get into all the stuff about personal liberty and responsibility...

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Sounds more like the philosophy of a 20 year old than the philosophy of a true Libertarian. I stick with commie.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is actually the philosophy of a 41 year old who now has a two year old to watch out for.

But, if you want to chalk me up as 44 per my Commie status, I'd be honored.

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would much rather see stricter driving exams, so that the drivers are more highly skilled, rather than making legistlation for the moronic masses. I would rather see drivers get more on-the-road training before getting their licenses. I'd like to see more education about making driving decisions (when is it a good time for event y, when should you wait a minute)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see those things too. I was a driving instructor in Georgia. It's so easy to get a license in that state it's a sick joke.

But it ain't going to happen. In part because legislators' kids are as much dumbasses as anybody else. And they don't want to tote their 16 year olds to school and back.

The ban is coming, because it's the easier thing to get done.

The Workers Have Nothing To Lose But Their Phones!

Warik

08-14-2005, 09:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Exchange "driving while talking on a cell phone" with "drunk driving" and then try to defend your argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have great difficulty driving drunk, so I don't do it.

No argument from me.

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 09:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
All-encompassing laws like this hurt a society. They don't help it. Punish people for being irresponsible... if I can drive and talk on the phone better than half the population can drive WITHOUT being on the phone (I live in Florida... nuff said), then why should I be punished for their inadequacies?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe in a perfect world, you shouldn't be.

But, if you miss that one second that causes you to kill my daughter, then you should get the death penalty in trade.

Clarkmeister

08-14-2005, 09:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All-encompassing laws like this hurt a society. They don't help it. Punish people for being irresponsible... if I can drive and talk on the phone better than half the population can drive WITHOUT being on the phone (I live in Florida... nuff said), then why should I be punished for their inadequacies?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe in a perfect world, you shouldn't be.

But, if you miss that one second that causes you to kill my daughter, then you should get the death penalty in trade.

[/ QUOTE ]

No he shouldn't, though I would certainly understand you feeling that way. But, that's a different topic for a different forum, and it's making me think this thread may well belong in that forum also. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Warik

08-14-2005, 10:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But, if you miss that one second that causes you to kill my daughter, then you should get the death penalty in trade.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 99%.

However, I haven't killed your daughter. As such, I kindly ask you to leave my rights alone.

Edit: After posting, I realize I only agreed 99%. But I still haven't killed your daughter... so my initial request still stands.

DasLeben

08-14-2005, 10:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As such, I kindly ask you to leave my rights alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a note, I do consider myself Libertarian. Well, I guess so. I'm more "anti-stupid" than anything.

Anyways, how does this at all affect your rights? Airline flight crews are required by federal law to not carry on personal conversation until above 10,000 feet. This doesn't have anything to do with your rights as an American citizen, but simply to remove potentially hazardous distractions.

I hate a lot of legislation going through nowadays, but I'd very much support laws banning cell phone usage while driving.

newfant

08-14-2005, 10:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But, if you miss that one second that causes you to kill my daughter, then you should get the death penalty in trade.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 99%.

However, I haven't killed your daughter. As such, I kindly ask you to leave my rights alone.

Edit: After posting, I realize I only agreed 99%. But I still haven't killed your daughter... so my initial request still stands

[/ QUOTE ]

No one is trying to trample on your "rights." If cell-phone-us-while-driving is "banned," it won't mean that you can't do it, but that you will get a ticket similar to a speeding ticket if you are caught doing it. It's just a way to deter dangerous behavior and put some of the cost of that behavior on the offender as opposed to the rest of society.

PS: There is no "right" to talk on a cell phone while driving. Read the Constitution if you don't believe me.

08-14-2005, 10:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exchange "driving while talking on a cell phone" with "drunk driving" and then try to defend your argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have great difficulty driving drunk, so I don't do it.

No argument from me.

[/ QUOTE ]

But there are plenty of people who will claim they can drive fine while drunk. Your rationale says that they shouldn't be prevented from doing so -- "penalized" I think was your word -- due to your "incompetence", i.e., your inability to drive drunk.

Doesn't this seem like a silly argument?

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]

However, I haven't killed your daughter. As such, I kindly ask you to leave my rights alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oddly enough, you don't have the 'right' to drive at all. That's a privilege granted by your State.

Warik

08-14-2005, 10:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, how does this at all affect your rights?

[/ QUOTE ]

Currently, there is no legislation where I live that prohibits the use of cell phones while driving; therefore, I have the right to be on the phone while I'm driving.

Implementing legislation that would outlaw cell phone use while driving would affect my rights.

Warik

08-14-2005, 10:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oddly enough, you don't have the 'right' to drive at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oddly enough, this thread is about using a cell phone while driving - not driving in general. What's your point?

Warik

08-14-2005, 10:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PS: There is no "right" to talk on a cell phone while driving. Read the Constitution if you don't believe me.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no "right" to use soap when you take a shower. Read the Constitution if you don't believe me.

A free society gives you the right to do anything that is not prohibited by law. A "not free" society forbids you from doing anything except that which is clearly permitted by law.

I live in the former. How about you?

08-14-2005, 10:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PS: There is no "right" to talk on a cell phone while driving. Read the Constitution if you don't believe me.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no "right" to use soap when you take a shower. Read the Constitution if you don't believe me.

A free society gives you the right to do anything that is not prohibited by law. A "not free" society forbids you from doing anything except that which is clearly permitted by law.

I live in the former. How about you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember being this vehement and closed-minded about issues when I was 15, too. Shove your "free society" bullshit up your ass and face the real world.

QED, bitch.

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 11:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oddly enough, you don't have the 'right' to drive at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oddly enough, this thread is about using a cell phone while driving - not driving in general. What's your point?

[/ QUOTE ]

" As such, I kindly ask you to leave my rights alone. "

I'm pointing out that driving is not a right. Therefore, talking on a cell phone while driving is also not a right.

On the other hand: Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are rights, at least in the U.S.

Talking on a cell phone while driving is an infringement on others' right to life, because it puts other people's lives in danger.

Clarkmeister

08-14-2005, 11:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Talking on a cell phone while driving is an infringement on others' right to life, because it puts other people's lives in danger.

[/ QUOTE ]

So does a speed limit in excess of 35mph, yet it's legal. There are tacit tradeoffs between convenience/cost and loss of life all the time in our laws. Just because something increases people's risk of death above a standard "sitting on the couch" value of ~0% doesn't mean it should be illegal.

This really needs to be in the Politics forum at this point.

ChipWrecked

08-14-2005, 11:33 PM

I'd have to agree. There's another point here that belongs in Philosophy, which is where that thread will be started.

cbfair

08-15-2005, 12:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Eating while driving is stupid. Putting on makeup, fiddling with the radio, all these things done while the car is in motion is frikkin insane. But they're activities that are done, then over. Cell conversations go on and on. The risk factor due strictly to the amount of time spent has got to be much, much higher.

Mark my words. The day will come when it is decided that the number of people killed in car wrecks caused by distracted cell-talking drivers is even greater than the number killed by drunk or otherwise chemically-impaired drivers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have a valid point here, and in general, I would support your cause... I do beg to differ on your estimation of fatalities caused by phone usage vs impaired driving. After my mother was killed by a drunk driver, I had occasion to study some statistics and what I found was that of about 50,000 traffic fatalities in 2002, about 30,000 of them were assosciated with drunk driving; These numbers are from the top of my head, but pretty close IIRC.

The number of phone related fatalities will never reach that of DUI partly for the same reason you state, DUI lasts for the duration of the ride everytime. Also, the extent of the impairment is much greater.

So in the end, if you want to crusade for vehicular safety, contribute to MADD or some similar organization.

daryn

08-15-2005, 03:01 AM

i just did a lot of highway driving down to atlantic city and back. just on this one trip i encountered many idiot motorists on cell phones. this one woman was driving a minivan in the left lane going ilke 65, i'm behind her wanting her to move the F over but it's not happening. i blink my lights at her, honk the horn even, and nothing, she just continues to cruise at 65 in the left lane. meanwhile the people in the lane one to the right of the left lane are going the same speed, so i'm boxed in. eventually i found some room and passed her on the right. i glance over and she is on the cell phone, totally oblivious to the world.

DCJ311

08-15-2005, 03:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i just did a lot of highway driving down to atlantic city and back. just on this one trip i encountered many idiot motorists on cell phones. this one woman was driving a minivan in the left lane going ilke 65, i'm behind her wanting her to move the F over but it's not happening. i blink my lights at her, honk the horn even, and nothing, she just continues to cruise at 65 in the left lane. meanwhile the people in the lane one to the right of the left lane are going the same speed, so i'm boxed in. eventually i found some room and passed her on the right. i glance over and she is on the cell phone, totally oblivious to the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we just pinpointed the cause of the problem.