Is this line too weak?

[ilya]

I'm worried that he's check-raising the turn with a semi-bluff or worse made hand too often. Should I commit?

***** Hand History for Game 2531446515 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:14820041 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Sunday, August 14, 00:22:38 EDT 2005
Table Table 14893 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 4: vigs28 ( $725 )
Seat 2: StneColdCall ( $725 )
Seat 5: Cardoza707 ( $1635 )
Seat 9: xjsay28x ( $690 )
Seat 3: GATORSTYLE91 ( $790 )
Seat 7: rickyq ( $880 )
Seat 1: Bullfrog0001 ( $1015 )
Seat 8: LightTheHalo ( $860 )
Seat 10: MNC4t ( $680 )
Trny:14820041 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to StneColdCall [ Ac Qh ]
Bullfrog0001 calls [30].
StneColdCall calls [30].
GATORSTYLE91 folds.
vigs28 folds.
Cardoza707 folds.
rickyq folds.
LightTheHalo folds.
xjsay28x calls [15].
MNC4t checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, Qd, 8d ]
xjsay28x checks.
MNC4t checks.
Bullfrog0001 bets [30].
StneColdCall raises [120].
xjsay28x folds.
MNC4t folds.
Bullfrog0001 calls [90].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jc ]
Bullfrog0001 checks.
StneColdCall bets [175].
Bullfrog0001 is all-In [865]
StneColdCall folds.

[lastchance]

I can't fold here in a $22. Villain could very well be a donk, though this is sort of an odd line for a donk to take, plus you're getting very good odds.

I'd raise just a bit more on the flop, and comfortably push the turn.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
StneColdCall calls [30].

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, line is too weak

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
StneColdCall calls [30].

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, line is too weak

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll raise in MP and LP but in EP I usually limp. I can see how raising might be better especially after a limper, as the overlimp encourages a multiway pot. Hmmm.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
StneColdCall calls [30].

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, line is too weak

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll raise in MP and LP but in EP I usually limp. I can see how raising might be better especially after a limper, as the overlimp encourages a multiway pot. Hmmm.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate this line. Define your hand as strong. With AQ if you are reraised, you know you can safely fold.

[ace_in_the_hole]

In a higher buy-in or rare occasion I think villain could play 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif like this

[jon462]

I call this almost every time at the 20s. Yer up against KQ, QJ, or Q10 mostly. You beat 2 of those hands and already have plenty of money invested.

[curtains]

ahhh I think limping is very reasonable here preflop. Once the flop comes Q82, its very unlikely that future events will make me fold.

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll raise in MP and LP but in EP I usually limp. I can see how raising might be better especially after a limper, as the overlimp encourages a multiway pot. Hmmm.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the reasoning for limping at all with AQo EP in a $22?

I'm asking because I see a lot of players recommending this, but I don't see the reasoning at all behind it.

[durron597]

I am only betting this turn if I plan to call a c/r. If I don't, then I'm checking behind and calling a river bet. Again, if he checks to me on the river I'm only betting if I plan to call a c/r.

Raise preflop. Here, you don't know if he's got some kinda weird two pair, a slowplayed AA or KK, a set, or a Q with a lower kicker. My guess is Q lower kicker, but I wouldn't bet much on it. If you raise preflop, you narrow these options down.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]

ahhh I think limping is very reasonable here preflop. Once the flop comes Q82, its very unlikely that future events will make me fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

the minbet/call on the flop and the check push on the turn just look like great strength to me (although there are a lot of monkeys at the 22s) considering that the op played it passively pf means that the op could have played any two. a pf raise really narrows down the hands the villain would play.

[Maulik]

you can't fold.

[MegaBet]

He can't put you on AQ because of your limp, so he may very well have a Q-weaker kicker. If he has 2 pair - c'est la vie! I call.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll raise in MP and LP but in EP I usually limp. I can see how raising might be better especially after a limper, as the overlimp encourages a multiway pot. Hmmm.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the reasoning for limping at all with AQo EP in a $22?

I'm asking because I see a lot of players recommending this, but I don't see the reasoning at all behind it.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, for one, when you limp in you often end up contesting pots with lots of hands you dominate, like Ax, KQ, QJ, and QT. when you raise, many of those hands will fold. if you don't get re-raised, you'll end up facing hands like AK-AJ and medium/small pairs.

also, there are some spots, mostly in level 3, when you don't want to call a short stack's all-in reraise with AQ, but raising will commit you.

i dunno, maybe this is off base, but it's what comes to mind. comments welcome.

[Ryendal]

Well I like a lot how you played it. Before you made you 120 bet I was thinking about a 125 one. And I like to your 175 bet. The way you played it is very ok for me.
I am still a little weak with my AQ, sometimes I fold preflop without any raise, sometimes I call, and sometimes I raise.

Here it is ok

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
well, for one, when you limp in you often end up contesting pots with lots of hands you dominate, like Ax, KQ, QJ, and QT. when you raise, many of those hands will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I figured you were getting at... but you're creating a limpfest with a hand that hates multiway pots. So now even if you hit your hand once in three times (and the probability that you'll hit this is less if you're inducing hands with shared cards to call), you're often going to try to control the pot size as much as you can semiOOP, and you want to keep those 2nd best hands around... so you'll probably be doing a lot of medium betting or some check/calling and not a lot of raising (unless you think your opponents will commit themselves with their draws or outkicked pairs often, which probably means they would've done so preflop too), and essentially letting draws hit or the small PPs flopping trips fairly cheaply. All for a really cheap price depending on how they choose to play their hands (they get to choose since other than the blinds, they'll be in position). And given the limp preflop, these are the types of hands that you'll be playing against. There's also the potential for many more scare cards that will kill the hand. So you better be sure you're going to make up a TON of value from those 2nd best hands.

Obviously you have to raise the flop minbet here because you can't let a blocking bet let your opponent have a free ticket through so easily.

By raising preflop though, you at least hope to get the pot to 1-2 opponents which allows you to bluff too (obviously not as successfully as being in position). You will also have a much better idea of where you stand in relation to your opponent and you can often induce bluffs or bets from 2nd best hands, or realize you've been outflopped and fold. There's also less scare cards, or you can even take advantage of the oppurtunity to use scare cards to push your opponent out of the pot. And because you have much more control over how the hand plays out, you're much more likely to force bigger mistakes on your opponent here IMO.

If it's not getting headsup very often when you pf raise, then obviously your opponents calling ranges would be wider than you have listed and you should be raising to begin with.

I know you already know all this... and I'm guessing your main concern here are that you're worried you'll get too committed to this hand given how easy it is to do with such limited chips. That may be, and it might not even be a bad thing at the $22s, but if that's the main concern and you think it's -EV to get married to this even with short chips, I'd just fold in this position. But I doubt its -EV. I think the preflop play in the end is what made this hand difficult to play.