Is this terrible play of a 8/b hand?

[Walter]

I was watching a 30/60 8/b game recently and saw the following hand. I was wondering whether the game is just played differently at the higher levels or these players were just bad.

W brings it in with a 5. Everyone folds to M, who completes the bet with a Q.

4th street: W has 7h5s, M has QdTd. M bets, W calls.
5th street: W has 8c7h5s, M has QdTd7s. M bets, W calls.

Can this 5th street call possibly be correct? Isn't the low hand in a raise-or-fold situation? Unless M has two pair or a straight-flush draw, M is in trouble with a raise.

6th street: W has 8c7h5s7c, M has QdTd7sAh
W checks and M takes a free card.

7th street: M now bets, W raises, and M calls.
W hit her gutshot straight on the river (I had seen her hole cards on 6th street and she did not have a completed hand). M had made AAQQ.

Is this bet ever correct by M? It seems that the better play is to check and call to possibly induce a bluff and to avoid getting raised.

[Andy B]

Let's say that W's has a pair and a low straight draw, which is pretty reasonable. He wouldn't fold, and I don't think that raising is profitable unless he somehow thinks that M has only a pair of Queens and will fold to his raise. I think that if M were inclined to fold to a raise, he probably wouldn't bet. I don't think he should do so at any rate. If W doesn't have a made low, then calling is probably the way to go. Pump-or-dump situations come up all the time in hold'em. I think that they're a lot less common in stud/8.

If you're reporting the hands correctly, M bet the river after W checked and then W check-raised. I would frequently bet Aces-up after W checked. W should usually bet if she's made something, because M can't be counted on to bet her hand for her. When W checks, it looks like she's missed, but M can expect to collect a bet from her if she's made two pair.

[lonehunter]

"Is this terrible play of a 8/b hand?"
It depends.

"4th street: W has 7h5s, M has QdTd. M bets, W calls.
5th street: W has 8c7h5s, M has QdTd7s. M bets, W calls."

If W were aggressive they may want to raise on 4th to take the momentum away from M. W would represent 64/75 to M. With a call W is playing it safe.
Raising is more costly on 5th if W is still drawing, which her call indicates. M still only has a pair of Qs at this point and is driving, hoping that W busts on her low. On 5th it looks like W paired one of her low cards.

"6th street: W has 8c7h5s7c, M has QdTd7sAh
W checks and M takes a free card."
Now W has 2 pair and no low. M is drawing to catch. If M bet W would call anyway.

On 7th, W checking usually means they missed. I would bet like M with AAQQ (which he caught on the river), hoping that W had either 2 small pair or a busted low. I have seen many big bets missed on 7th because of this. The check raise sucks, but it is still worth betting because of the times you do scoop.

Just my humble opinion,
-KeithO