Schneids
08-13-2005, 04:49 PM
I've received a lot of requests for a long time to post some examples of when I think it's appropriate, and finally did it one time last night AND remembered to keep track of it to post. There are a lot of times I do it on varying board types, so, I'll just type out the hand and as I go, bullet the positives and add a few points about why I think on this board it's a better line than some of the other options.
Online 6-handed $100/200, folded to Stoxtrader on the button and he raises. I call in the BB with Th8h.
Flop 6c 6s Td
I check and call.
- The board is pretty bland, but does contain a few draws. Stox knows I could play 98/87/97 this way. He also knows I could check/call with king high or ace high thinking it's the best hand. The board is bland enough though where I think a lot of the value of checkraising is lost, since he is going to think my checkraise is often a pure bluff or a very good hand [which it is] (where as I prefer checkraising on the flop when the opponent is more likely to believe I am semibluffing when I in fact have a made hand). Of course he still includes a ten or trips on the possible hand range, as well as baby pairs or a slowplayed biggie.
- Given what he thinks of my likely hand range, and what I know of his hand range on the button (tighter than me but still a lot of aces, kings queens and jacks, and a lot of suited connectors/one gappers), I think there's a lot of hands where he just folds right away, and a lot of hands where he'll 3 bet me both with the worst hand, or the best.
- This type of board I'd rather get to the river for a maximum of 2.5BBs than 3BBs. For those who haven't played with Stox, at least against me, he plays pretty passively. I feel like the more bets we both put in on this board, the more likely it is I'm beat. If your opponent doesn't fit this idea, it's usually better to checkraise because you'd like to invite some turn bluff raises on the board (after you checkraise the flop and he calls). But basically, I know I'm going to go to showdown and I know I'd like to control the amount of money I'm putting into the pot.
- The check/call, bet line on a paired board often looks like a bluff, so you still get a lot of loose call downs and raises anyway. It looks like I'm playing king high like this and making a value-bluff (trying to charge him if he is behind to king high which is prolly 50% given this flop but also trying to fold hands that chop with me).
Ok, now the turn: 6h.
- It just happened to work out this way, but that card rocks to follow through with the check/call bet. Everything is out on the board, so, he's both less likely to have it and to believe I have it.
I bet, he raises, I call.
- I think Stox can find some 55 or 77 folds on this board if he holds that. Maybe not always, but sometimes. I don't want him folding those, so I don't three bet.
- It's very possible we're chopping anyway, and he's not folding a ten obviously if I 3 bet, so there's no point to do it when it's very likely he folds, or 4-bets quads (yet no way on the planet I fold to a 4-bet though I hate calling).
River 4. I bet again.
- Pretty well explained on the turn. Against more aggressive players I check to try to induce a bluff.
- Basically, trying to ensure I am putting in 3-4BBs on this board between the turn and river, plus I think this turn/river line is the best and only way I can get 3BBs out of Stox when he has a smaller pocket pair or even ace high. I don't think he's often raising the turn with total fluff.
Anyway, Stox folded to the river bet then got on IM later and asked me about the hand and if I had a pair. Guess he had total fluff or made a good ace high laydown (if he had ace high and I c/r the flop, I speculate it goes I c/r he calls, I bet turn he calls, I bet riv he folds and I still get less BBs out of his ace high than by playing it this more suspicious way).
Basically, in summary:
- It's good to do on dryish (but not draw-free) boards.
- It's good when I know I'm going to showdown no matter what other cards come, but it's against an opponent who doesn't play me aggressively, as the line offers the lowest max amt of bets I'm going to put in while denying any free cards (the key point about why it's better than check/call, check...since remembering opponent is "passive," so, he's more likely to check behind on the turn with his 6-10 outer).
- It's still suspicious enough to often get curiosity calls or even better a few bluff raises on the turn.
- If they fold to your turn bet they were probably going to fold to the flop checkraise/turn bet anyway.
- The two lines generally only produce different results by 1SB, given you're going to go to showdown no matter what, so it's best against opponents you're more concerned about saving bets vs than earning bets from (ie passiveish players who still bluff with about the right frequency and play ok on up to awesome).
Comments/rebuttals appreciated. There are other times I think check/call, bet is good and hopefully they'll come up soon and I remember to post another, but if not, I hope this example helps illustrate some of the considerations.
Online 6-handed $100/200, folded to Stoxtrader on the button and he raises. I call in the BB with Th8h.
Flop 6c 6s Td
I check and call.
- The board is pretty bland, but does contain a few draws. Stox knows I could play 98/87/97 this way. He also knows I could check/call with king high or ace high thinking it's the best hand. The board is bland enough though where I think a lot of the value of checkraising is lost, since he is going to think my checkraise is often a pure bluff or a very good hand [which it is] (where as I prefer checkraising on the flop when the opponent is more likely to believe I am semibluffing when I in fact have a made hand). Of course he still includes a ten or trips on the possible hand range, as well as baby pairs or a slowplayed biggie.
- Given what he thinks of my likely hand range, and what I know of his hand range on the button (tighter than me but still a lot of aces, kings queens and jacks, and a lot of suited connectors/one gappers), I think there's a lot of hands where he just folds right away, and a lot of hands where he'll 3 bet me both with the worst hand, or the best.
- This type of board I'd rather get to the river for a maximum of 2.5BBs than 3BBs. For those who haven't played with Stox, at least against me, he plays pretty passively. I feel like the more bets we both put in on this board, the more likely it is I'm beat. If your opponent doesn't fit this idea, it's usually better to checkraise because you'd like to invite some turn bluff raises on the board (after you checkraise the flop and he calls). But basically, I know I'm going to go to showdown and I know I'd like to control the amount of money I'm putting into the pot.
- The check/call, bet line on a paired board often looks like a bluff, so you still get a lot of loose call downs and raises anyway. It looks like I'm playing king high like this and making a value-bluff (trying to charge him if he is behind to king high which is prolly 50% given this flop but also trying to fold hands that chop with me).
Ok, now the turn: 6h.
- It just happened to work out this way, but that card rocks to follow through with the check/call bet. Everything is out on the board, so, he's both less likely to have it and to believe I have it.
I bet, he raises, I call.
- I think Stox can find some 55 or 77 folds on this board if he holds that. Maybe not always, but sometimes. I don't want him folding those, so I don't three bet.
- It's very possible we're chopping anyway, and he's not folding a ten obviously if I 3 bet, so there's no point to do it when it's very likely he folds, or 4-bets quads (yet no way on the planet I fold to a 4-bet though I hate calling).
River 4. I bet again.
- Pretty well explained on the turn. Against more aggressive players I check to try to induce a bluff.
- Basically, trying to ensure I am putting in 3-4BBs on this board between the turn and river, plus I think this turn/river line is the best and only way I can get 3BBs out of Stox when he has a smaller pocket pair or even ace high. I don't think he's often raising the turn with total fluff.
Anyway, Stox folded to the river bet then got on IM later and asked me about the hand and if I had a pair. Guess he had total fluff or made a good ace high laydown (if he had ace high and I c/r the flop, I speculate it goes I c/r he calls, I bet turn he calls, I bet riv he folds and I still get less BBs out of his ace high than by playing it this more suspicious way).
Basically, in summary:
- It's good to do on dryish (but not draw-free) boards.
- It's good when I know I'm going to showdown no matter what other cards come, but it's against an opponent who doesn't play me aggressively, as the line offers the lowest max amt of bets I'm going to put in while denying any free cards (the key point about why it's better than check/call, check...since remembering opponent is "passive," so, he's more likely to check behind on the turn with his 6-10 outer).
- It's still suspicious enough to often get curiosity calls or even better a few bluff raises on the turn.
- If they fold to your turn bet they were probably going to fold to the flop checkraise/turn bet anyway.
- The two lines generally only produce different results by 1SB, given you're going to go to showdown no matter what, so it's best against opponents you're more concerned about saving bets vs than earning bets from (ie passiveish players who still bluff with about the right frequency and play ok on up to awesome).
Comments/rebuttals appreciated. There are other times I think check/call, bet is good and hopefully they'll come up soon and I remember to post another, but if not, I hope this example helps illustrate some of the considerations.