Bubble fun with KQ..

[raptor517]

people have been talking about not enough content on this forum lately blah blah so i been tryin to stir some shtuff up.. heres another one..

***** Hand History for Game 2528814772 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:14805443 Level:5 Blinds(75/150) - Saturday, August 13, 15:56:09 EDT 2005
Table Table 14534 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 2: fatdongs ( $1735 )
Seat 3: JoeBlazeNYC ( $4010 )
Seat 4: nckstradamus ( $1330 )
Seat 6: Busting_Nuts ( $605 )
Seat 7: Itachi86 ( $2320 )
Trny:14805443 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Itachi86 [ Kc Qh ]
nckstradamus folds.
Busting_Nuts folds.
>You have options at Table 19563 Table!.
Itachi86 raises [400].
fatdongs folds.
JoeBlazeNYC calls [250].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, Ac, 9d ]
JoeBlazeNYC checks.
Itachi86

now we have a poll.. and a new discussion. holla

[The Don]

I'd bet 450 and expect a fold... Big stacks tend to defend with very little in these situations.

[Matt R.]

This completely depends on the player for me. I think checking or betting around t450-500 are both reasonable. I'd tend to bet against a loose preflop player who is a weak postflop player. I'd almost definitely check against a solid BB who could easily take me off the hand even without the ace. I'd be hesitant against an overly aggressive type too -- I don't like putting too many chips in jeapardy here since you're sitting very comfortably right now. I'm voting to check, since I'd probably do that slightly more often than betting, since you're still 2nd in chips even if you get taken off the hand.

[Newt_Buggs]

I don't see how you can check here, a continuation bet really is in order. A lot of players will defend their blinds to a position raise like this with a very wide range, and most of that range will have missed this flop. It takes a very gutsy player to play back at a preflop raiser with nothing when there's an ace on the board.

[Ryendal]

I would bet some 600 ish.
300 looks like a steal pot for me and it's the big stack in front of me.
If he reraises me with my 300 bet I am very afraid that is a bluff, but the fold is forced.
1300 stack would be still a nice stack to play with on a reraise.

I am really interested by your point of view here.

[J-Lo]

Bet more than 300, but not 600. I like to put myself in a position where if i can raised out of the hand, i'm in GOOD shape in terms of stack sizes. 1500 is still plenty to maneuver with. Also, along the lines of what newt said, it takes heart to play back at continuation bet when there's an A on board.

Now here's my question-- how would u play KK-TT in this scenario? At what point do your cards start to matter?

I remember talking w/ raptor, and him saying that he DOES NOT mind getting down to 5x BB. I start to panic when i hit 5-6xBB. (Although recently i've gone 1/8 at the $55's after letting myself get down to 3x BB in a few of 'em.) So again, i'd like to reiterate, i like to leave myself w// a stack with which i can maneuver comfortably. Also, personally, i fold this preflop, because your stack size is in that no man's land range.

[johnnybeef]

this is so highly player dependent

[bigt439]

I like preflop because I don't think you can fold this on the button. 400 is fine. On the flop I really think you do need a continuation bet for alot of the reasons newt said. The ace makes it so hard for him to play back at you that I think you take it down here a large portion of the time. As for the bet size I say make it just over half the pot because it's enough to fold a hand, but still leaves you with alot afterwards. I think a half pot bet looks stronger than a pot bet here for sure. If I had an ace I wouldn't go potting it. Obviously no more chips go in after this bet.

[Womble]

I like preflop, was going to say bet more but you are in EP and still want to be able to get away from your hand.

A 300 bet on the flop will get rid of all hands that would fold to a 600 bet so 600 is useless. If your called I give up and check fold the next street. All in is a waste, may be seen as a desperation move and no one who has a strong A and maybe even a weak A will fold. Your only chance to win is a smallish continuation bet

You still have enough chips to play on from this point. You are going to have to take risks but I clawed my way up from 200 with 8 left to 2nd place today so it can be done.

[inyaface]

I continuation bet 4-500 knowing the big stack could be calling with a ton of non ace hands trying to hit some sort of flop with any two. Also knowing that he probably will stab at the pot on the turn if you check behind on the flop. If hes check raising bite the bullet...you still have a decent stack, take the clock and say something about how this happens every time you have kings and that your going to bust him....or something

[Ryendal]

So, what is your line Raptor ?

[ QUOTE ]
I continuation bet 4-500 knowing the big stack could be calling with a ton of non ace hands trying to hit some sort of flop with any two. Also knowing that he probably will stab at the pot on the turn if you check behind on the flop. If hes check raising bite the bullet...you still have a decent stack, take the clock and say something about how this happens every time you have kings and that your going to bust him....or something

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol.. I always do that.

I think a bet of 300 is sufficient.. maybe you need 4 just to make it not look too weak. I think you can make the assumptions that 1) he's calling preflop with a wide range of hands (offsuit connectors, one-spacers, maybe garbage, possibly just a 2 and a letter from his gf). 2) he's checking just about any hand on this flop (maybe with the exception of small/mid pair). 3) he's folding a complete whiff to 300 here at least 95% of the time.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
So, what is your line Raptor ?

[/ QUOTE ]

i bet 300 and he folded. /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[yabastid]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, what is your line Raptor ?

[/ QUOTE ]

i bet 300 and he folded. /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[/ QUOTE ]


Did you have a plan in making that 300 bet? It seems possible that the BB could see this as weakness and raise. I usually make my continuation bets 1/2 or a little more depending. Had probe bets taken down pots? Did you have a read on villian or were you too busy 47-tabling /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

What was your reasoning for your line? I don't see it.

yabastid

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, what is your line Raptor ?

[/ QUOTE ]

i bet 300 and he folded. /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[/ QUOTE ]


Did you have a plan in making that 300 bet? It seems possible that the BB could see this as weakness and raise. I usually make my continuation bets 1/2 or a little more depending. Had probe bets taken down pots? Did you have a read on villian or were you too busy 47-tabling /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

What was your reasoning for your line? I don't see it.

yabastid

[/ QUOTE ]

i always have an idea of what my opponents are doing regardless of how many tables im playing. my reasoning was this.. and it should be fairly easy to understand. if i bet in the neighborhood of 600, he could shove because he has me outstacked, and i would have to fold a non ace. any good player would recognize that fact. therefore, i bet 300. this accomplished quite a few things. it gave me a solid chance to pick up the pot, assuming the villian thought i was strong trying to suck him in, and if it was a failed attempt, it would be a minimal risk to my stack..

in a situation like this, its not necessary to put too many chips in the pot. most people that fold for 600 will also fold for 300. if they dont have a pair, they usually dont call. its not necessary to make a big bet in this situation. i probably worry too much that people will play like me, and bluff raise my non ace off of my 600 chip bet and take me off the pot. a 300 bet prevents a bluff shove from the opponent.

i duno... im sure theres another way to play it that works just as well maybe better, but a lot of poker is situation and feel that you cant actually experience just witnessing a hand history. in my mind at the time, the situation called for a 300 chip bet, i made the bet, and took the pot. holla

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, what is your line Raptor ?

[/ QUOTE ]

i bet 300 and he folded. /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what I would do. 600 is overkill, and you lose twice the amount if he does have a strong ace. Betting 600 here is definitely a mistake.

[HighestCard]

...he called, the turn came a queen and he checked again. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Just played that hand. I bet the same amount, what was now 1/4 pot impulsively, and felt very dumb. He called and pushed the blank river. The pot was about the size of our stacks and we were first and second stacks with 5 left. I folded what may well have been the best hand to a busted flush draw. I think a check would've been best. Maybe a slightly larger bet would have been more effective at getting any non-ace to check the river to me.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Just played that hand. I bet the same amount, what was now 1/4 pot impulsively, and felt very dumb. He called and pushed the blank river. The pot was about the size of our stacks and we were first and second stacks with 5 left. I folded what may well have been the best hand to a busted flush draw. I think a check would've been best. Maybe a slightly larger bet would have been more effective at getting any non-ace to check the river to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok it should be obv the bet isnt going to work every time. feel free to think K high is the best hand. thats not the point. holla

[Ryendal]

[ QUOTE ]
So, what is your line Raptor ?

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
i bet 300 and he folded. holla

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly what I would do. 600 is overkill, and you lose twice the amount if he does have a strong ace. Betting 600 here is definitely a mistake.


[/ QUOTE ]
Actually the pot is at 875 and I thought 2/3 of the pot was a normal bet.
I thought the big stack could more easily reraise me with a 300 bet than on a 550.
It's why I wrote my analyse to get a critical but positive answer, like the one that raptor wrote.
300 still seems so smallish for me, and I will have to get it in my mind.



[ QUOTE ]
i probably worry too much that people will play like me, and bluff raise my non ace off of my 600 chip bet and take me off the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well for my part, I would really more easily bluff a 300 bet with nothing than on a 600 bet.
If it works well for you, well it should be the best move then and I'm not kidding /images/graemlins/wink.gif.



[ QUOTE ]
a 300 bet prevents a bluff shove from the opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why ? I guess it's something special here. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
a 300 bet prevents a bluff shove from the opponent.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why ? I guess it's something special here.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, it would prevent one from me at least. there is just too many chips to risk for a bluff shove if i only bet 300, but if i bet 600 it makes it more than worth it.

[ QUOTE ]
Well for my part, I would really more easily bluff a 300 bet with nothing than on a 600 bet.
If it works well for you, well it should be the best move then and I'm not kidding .

[/ QUOTE ]

thing is.. if u bet 300, and they raise it to 900, and you go all in, there is about oh.. no way they can fold unless they have absolutely nothing with no chance to win. thats why, in my mind, 300 is just about the perfect amount to bet. holla

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just played that hand. I bet the same amount, what was now 1/4 pot impulsively, and felt very dumb. He called and pushed the blank river. The pot was about the size of our stacks and we were first and second stacks with 5 left. I folded what may well have been the best hand to a busted flush draw. I think a check would've been best. Maybe a slightly larger bet would have been more effective at getting any non-ace to check the river to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok it should be obv the bet isnt going to work every time. feel free to think K high is the best hand. thats not the point. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif I didn't have K high, I had second pair. Plus, I folded. My previous post was in response to the question "What if he calls and a Q comes off."

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just played that hand. I bet the same amount, what was now 1/4 pot impulsively, and felt very dumb. He called and pushed the blank river. The pot was about the size of our stacks and we were first and second stacks with 5 left. I folded what may well have been the best hand to a busted flush draw. I think a check would've been best. Maybe a slightly larger bet would have been more effective at getting any non-ace to check the river to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok it should be obv the bet isnt going to work every time. feel free to think K high is the best hand. thats not the point. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif I didn't have K high, I had second pair. Plus, I folded. My previous post was in response to the question "What if he calls and a Q comes off."

[/ QUOTE ]

i would bet again, and probably fold to a shove. not many people are going to bluff raise after TWO bets. holla

[ilya]

I was originally gonna bet about 500, but having read your reply I agree that the smaller 300 bet is better. This flop is safe for TP, so the bet seems at least as strong as the larger one.

[Ryendal]

[ QUOTE ]
thing is.. if u bet 300, and they raise it to 900, and you go all in, there is about oh.. no way they can fold unless they have absolutely nothing with no chance to win. thats why, in my mind, 300 is just about the perfect amount to bet. holla

[/ QUOTE ]
But you should fold to a 900 bet no ?
I only try to make it clear in my mind

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

thing is.. if u bet 300, and they raise it to 900, and you go all in, there is about oh.. no way they can fold unless they have absolutely nothing with no chance to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait a sec...now that I think about it, is that a good thing? you're making it cheaper for him to bluff-raise you with no outs.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

thing is.. if u bet 300, and they raise it to 900, and you go all in, there is about oh.. no way they can fold unless they have absolutely nothing with no chance to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait a sec...now that I think about it, is that a good thing? you're making it cheaper for him to bluff-raise you with no outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

RAWR. what a crap agrument i just made. thats what i get for doin this while 8 tabling.. lez c if i can crawl out of this one.. oh great. i dont know if i can.. bleh. lets see..... yer right.. it DOES Make it cheaper for him to bluff raise.. i duno.. i do really like a 300 bet though a lot more than 600.. CANT THINK NOW)!@#(%)(@!#%)(@)(%)(@# holla

[yabastid]

[ QUOTE ]
a 300 bet prevents a bluff shove from the opponent.



i duno... im sure theres another way to play it that works just as well maybe better, but a lot of poker is situation and feel that you cant actually experience just witnessing a hand history. in my mind at the time, the situation called for a 300 chip bet, i made the bet, and took the pot. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it as just the opposite. I think 300 invites a bluff shove while 600 may get him to fold. I agree that a lot of it is feel and your read was correct. I just don't know that 300 accomplishes the same thing as 600.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a 300 bet prevents a bluff shove from the opponent.



i duno... im sure theres another way to play it that works just as well maybe better, but a lot of poker is situation and feel that you cant actually experience just witnessing a hand history. in my mind at the time, the situation called for a 300 chip bet, i made the bet, and took the pot. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it as just the opposite. I think 300 invites a bluff shove while 600 may get him to fold. I agree that a lot of it is feel and your read was correct. I just don't know that 300 accomplishes the same thing as 600.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think 600 looks way too big for an ace though.. and since hes got me stacked, if i was him, i would be coming over the top there about 80% of the time. holla

[bennies]

I agree with Raptor (and Ilya). I always tiny c-bet an A high non scary flop.

[Nicok7]

Depending how tricky the big stack is a min bet might look so much like a steal that he might go on resteal. Checking is definitly too weak unless big stak is the extremely passive type, so I usually bet half to 2/3rd of the pot(Ideally 2/3rd but here if we later loose the pot should he not fold, it puts us in bad shape, so something like 450 would probably be my line).