Tough Hand: AKs, TPTK... OOP

[Python49]

Read on villainis that he seems to be a good player but i've seen him over play many hands that seem like amateur mistakes at times. Moving all in with QQ after reraises then a push by someone pre flop.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($123.05)
BB ($191.25)
UTG ($35.45)
Button ($188.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $3.5</font>, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $10</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $25</font>, BB calls $15.

Turn: ($58) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $40</font>, BB calls $40.

River: ($138) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $55</font>, Hero calls $54.05 (All-In).

Final Pot: $247.05

How's the line? I figure on flop since i'm out of position, just calling is out of the question so I decided to reraise and then bet close to 2/3 pot on the turn. I've asked others and they said a push on the turn after reraising flop is better, but if I push turn, this is a pretty big overbet. What's the better line.

Only hands you are ahead of are KQ and KJ... The min-raise screams danger most of the time. Guessing you lost to 33 or 99

[Python49]

Hero has Kh Ah (two pair, kings and threes).
BB has Tc Kc (two pair, kings and tens).
Outcome: BB wins $247.04.

What is a better line, fold to a min raise on flop? Call then just fold to pot bet on turn? I would have been laying down the best hand and what felt like the best hand. I don't want to be results oriented which is why I made the post because I just wanted to know at what point the hand is dropped or at what point i move in.

[ QUOTE ]
Hero has Kh Ah (two pair, kings and threes).
BB has Tc Kc (two pair, kings and tens).
Outcome: BB wins $247.04.

What is a better line, fold to a min raise on flop? Call then just fold to pot bet on turn? I would have been laying down the best hand and what felt like the best hand. I don't want to be results oriented which is why I made the post because I just wanted to know at what point the hand is dropped or at what point i move in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fighting back tears right now. I'm assuming now that you knew something about this guy and knew he was capable of raising without having you beat. Problem is that you're pretty deep stacked here. If a push on the flop could've been reasonable, then this hand's pretty easy IMHO. But, with such deep stacks and an opponent repping strength, you're in a reallty tough spot. I think I would've raised more on the flop or just smooth called.

[xcrack999]

Classic way ahead / way behind situation. Check-call him down if you feel he overplays his hands a lot, or call flop raise, check-call turn, and blocking bet river, or call flop raise and bet out turn folding to a raise.

[Python49]

Oh ok, so call min raise on flop, then check/call from there? I felt as though if I just call his raise on flop i'm in the same predicament I was in there but for two more streets where he'll have open will to bet whatever he wants when im showing real weakness by checking to him. I also think a better line would have been to take that second stab on turn with a strong bet and if called or raised go into c/f since i'm not beating anything to a push.. but at the time I felt committed, but if i fold to the river push when im likely not beating anything I would have played it so that i got my money in each time when I was ahead, then when im beat I fold which sounds like the goal.

[Python49]

I think I would've raised more on the flop or just smooth called.


If you raise more on flop and are called... what do you do on turn? If you just call on flop and he pot's the turn.. is that the point which you give it up?

[fimbulwinter]

in general against an aggressive player HU my line is raise pf, check/call flop, check/call turn, 1/2 pot river.

if he's passive and he raises, i just call down HU.

there's really no reason to 3bet this flop.

fim

[midget23]

why did you abandon the bet the turn c/f the river line?

[Python49]

By the river I felt committed and had seen villain overplay other hands previously.

I think you played it fine. Maybe you could tweak something here or there, but it looks generally OK.

Most important though, reload and get your money back from that jackass. If he's going to call you down with TPNK after you've put that much pressure on him, leaving that table before he does would be -EV.

[gunslingner]

I call this flop, and check/call the rest if I dont have any reads.

Pot control is crucial when you have TPTK oop, in my opinion.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i really hate your flop 3-bet.

[amoeba]

you must not be afraid to check call down.

you 3bet the flop and bet the turn for near pot thus committing yourself because you didn't know what to do.

villain is not going to make a mistake here because your hand is clearly defined.

[mayesie]

I think you played the hand well until the river (I think a push on the flop or turn is way too overzealous). I don't quite understand why you check/called the river, as opposed to pushing yourself. I really don't consider the board to be scary against a single opponent in the Big Blind.

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you played the hand well until the river (I think a push on the flop or turn is way too overzealous). I don't quite understand why you check/called the river, as opposed to pushing yourself. I really don't consider the board to be scary against a single opponent in the Big Blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

precisely because the board isn't scary is why you should be scared. you've done everything to represent TPTK and is fairly unlikely villain is semibluffing with his aggression so you get in to pure bluff or things that beat TPTK territory.

[Python49]

amoeba, so would a better line have been to call hsi min raise on flop, call consecutive pot sized bets on turn/river or on river if the bet is too big to fold? I figured that if I just call his min raise on flop he would assume that i'm weak and could pretty much fire 2 big bets on turn and river with anything.

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
amoeba, so would a better line have been to call hsi min raise on flop, call consecutive pot sized bets on turn/river or on river if the bet is too big to fold? I figured that if I just call his min raise on flop he would assume that i'm weak and could pretty much fire 2 big bets on turn and river with anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you were willing to commit to the pot with a 1 pair hand anyways then wouldn't you want his hand range to be anything?

as opposed to telling him the strength of your hand and thus allowing him to play more optimally?

also, without a 3 bet, pot size is much smaller thus calling down isn't as expensive and we have no idea whether he would make pot sized turn and river bets anyways.

[mayesie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you played the hand well until the river (I think a push on the flop or turn is way too overzealous). I don't quite understand why you check/called the river, as opposed to pushing yourself. I really don't consider the board to be scary against a single opponent in the Big Blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

precisely because the board isn't scary is why you should be scared. you've done everything to represent TPTK and is fairly unlikely villain is semibluffing with his aggression so you get in to pure bluff or things that beat TPTK territory.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with your rationale when up against a good player (obviously, bad players won't care what you represent). Based on the poster's read of his opponent, it's very much possible that the villian is willing to call down w/ KQ (or something similar). The result of this hand indicates that the villian doesn't pay much attention to the potential holdings of his opponents.

IMO, there is some value being lost in these situations because TPTK is checked alot at the river. It seems like alot of players get scared because they're rationalizing that the only hand that calls down is one that has TPTK beat. I believe the right move in this type of situation (non threatening board) is largely read-dependant (please accept my apologies if I'm overstating the obvious). /images/graemlins/smile.gif