how do you handle a friend on tilt gambling away his $$ till its gone?

[PokerPaul]

serious question this happened to me yesterday.

went with buddy to local casino which only spreads slot machines and video poker.

nicest guy you could meet, always friendly and smiling.

i hate casino games cuz you'll lose your money in long run unlike poker. long story short, he drops 300 in about 15 minutes at a let it ride machine..not a biggie he can afford it but it wasnt fun.

then he goes to hi limit slots cuz he wants to make it back quickly. i try to talk him out of it and just swallow the loss...i dropped 60 bux and didnt care to lose anymore.

anyways he says just 200 more on a $5 slot. He drops both bills without hitting one winning combination...not even a cherry.

He reaches in his pockets and puts in 2 more...i tell him to let it go and literally wrap my arms around him to pull him away...some of it in jest, but i didnt want him to drop more. He loses that.. now he's getting steamed...he insists the machine is ice cold (which it was) and is due for a big hot streak now.

He drops those two bills and now i tell him seriously lets just go. before i can act 2 more go in the machine. Finally he hits triple sevens and gets a $300 score. I tell him to cash out there was his big hand, but he would still be down a couple hundred even then, so now he starts to give me a bit of an evil eye, like im annoying him and being like a nagging wife. very unlike him....he has the gleam in his eyes that he aint leaving until he made back all his $$.

At this point i give up and leave him alone, and tell him i'll be playing 25c video poker a couple of rows over.

An hour later i dropped another 80 just waiting for him to finish. then i head back to see him do his last 3 spins.

He is really pissed off. he finished wasting close to 2 grand, and tapped out his withdrawel limits for the day.

he wasted 3 days of profits from his families restaurant he runs, and was now also a bit peeved at me for not pulling him away sooner, although he did know i tried, but i guess not hard enough.

He is not a degenerate gambler, he goes to casino quite rearely, but when he goes, he thinks he has to stay and keep playing until he hits a jackpot or go broke.

I thought i tried every reasonable approach to get us to leave, but with him i guess another method is needed. He'll laugh about it a couple of days from now, but while its happenening hes a whole different person.

[James Boston]

Probably better for the Psych Forum. To answer your question, I think this is somethinghe has to learn to control on his own. It might be hard, but outside of some verbal warnings, you pretty much need to let him be a big boy and do as he pleases.

[Felix_Nietsche]

Ask him EXACTLY how you should handle this situation in the future. After he explains, tell him you will follow his instructions RUTHLESSLY so ask him AGAIN if this is what he REALLY wants. Then follow your orders soldier!!!

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
He is not a degenerate gambler

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
When he goes, he thinks he has to stay and keep playing until he hits a jackpot or go broke.

[/ QUOTE ]

The above two statements are contradictory.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He is not a degenerate gambler

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
When he goes, he thinks he has to stay and keep playing until he hits a jackpot or go broke.

[/ QUOTE ]

The above two statements are contradictory.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell is a non-degenerate gambler when you're playing with the worst of it?

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Don't go back to the casino with this friend. If he is willing to listen, talk to him AWAY FROM THE CASINO about his gambling problem. If he is unwilling to listen, there is not much you can do, other than refuse to go with him.

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
and was now also a bit peeved at me for not pulling him away sooner

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, you answer your own question! Never, you know I'm right,and I mean never go to a gambling establishment with this fellow again!

Vince

[sekrah]

He needs to learn his own lessons here.

Now, when me and my friends hit the casino floor and I've had a few Coronas in me, I take my wallet out, take $100 or $150 out for myself, and give my wallet (with the rest of my money and ATM cards) to a friend of mine, because I know what could very well happen if I hold onto my wallet.

[Jeffage]

I'm just curious (not trying to insult you), but if you can't control how much money you blow in the pit to the point that you have to someone else hold your wallet and money, it seems unlikely you'd have the discipline to be a winning player. How can you approach poker in a disciplined manner if you can't trust yourself not to blow off tons of money in other gambling situations?

Jeff

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't go back to the casino with this friend. If he is willing to listen, talk to him AWAY FROM THE CASINO about his gambling problem. If he is unwilling to listen, there is not much you can do, other than refuse to go with him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. it sucks, but it's about the only thing you can do. Tell him you don't like the way he gambles and don't want to witness it first-hand again. Tell him it makes you uncomfortable.

[Easy E]

[ QUOTE ]
i try to talk him out of it and just swallow the loss...i dropped 60 bux and didnt care to lose anymore.

...he insists the machine is ice cold (which it was) and is due for a big hot streak now.

....he has the gleam in his eyes that he aint leaving until he made back all his $$.

At this point i give up and leave him alone, and tell him i'll be playing 25c video poker a couple of rows over.

An hour later i dropped another 80 just waiting for him to finish.

he wasted 3 days of profits from his families restaurant he runs,

He is not a degenerate gambler, he goes to casino quite rearely, but when he goes, he thinks he has to stay and keep playing until he hits a jackpot or go broke.

He'll laugh about it a couple of days from now, but while its happenening hes a whole different person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both of you have control issues and shouldn't be playing in a casino.

And for what it's worth, He is not a degenerate gambler YET,

[Easy E]

<font color="blue">What the hell is a non-degenerate gambler when you're playing with the worst of it? </font>

Being a disadvantage gambler doesn't make you a degenerate. It's when you don't control your bankroll and tilt off money when losing that you could be at risk for degeneracy

[sekrah]

I'm talking about full-blown, all out hammered here. I cannot handle myself.

I rarely get drunk at the poker table..

[MicroBob]

I agree with telling him that you won't go back there with him again.


I don't get the part about him getting mad at you for not pulling him away sooner.
Sounds like you gave it a reasonable try to say "okay dude. we're done. let's go home." and then he would get all pissy at you and stuff another $200 in there.

This dude has a SERIOUS problem. And it's possible that he goes to this place more than you are aware of and loses more than you know about.
Seriously...do you KNOW that this guy only goes there rarely??

Anyway...don't go back again. Tell him it was REALLY uncomfortable for you. Tell him you think he should never go back there because he was REALLY out of control and it wasn't even close. Tell him that he was like a different freaking person and that he had this bizarre look in his eye that you had never seen before when he was all pissed off at you for trying to call it a night...and that you were truly surprised at hoe weirdly psycho he got when he so forcefully insisted on staying and putting another $200 in there.



Perhaps another option would be to tell him that the ONLY way you will go back there with him again is if he leaves his wallet and bank-cards behind and only takes $200 with him (and if he agrees to play the table minimums so that his night can last longer....he will either win $100 to $200 or lose $100 to $200 and he will take as long as possible to do it).
But I still think it's probably best if you take the other strategy of flat-out telling him "dude....that was REALLY uncomfortable and you REALLY have some sprt of a problem. I am NOT going to take part in something like that with you again."

It was time to drag him out of the casino when he started playing Pick A Number Between 1 and 10, Guess Which Hand, Rock-Paper-Scissors, and War.

Seriously, though, some people just won't learn until they learn the hard way. To quote Citizen Kane: "Anybody else, I'd say what's gonna happen to you would be a lesson to you. Only you're gonna need more than one lesson. And
you're gonna get more than one lesson." Unfortunately, some of those lessons are very costly.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
Ask him EXACTLY how you should handle this situation in the future. After he explains, tell him you will follow his instructions RUTHLESSLY so ask him AGAIN if this is what he REALLY wants. Then follow your orders soldier!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

this sounds like the right approach, though i would say that your buddy should adopt some kind of stop-loss strategy, like only bringing $300 with him and no cards, etc.

he may or may not be a problem gambler, but i'd make sure that he takes a look at the wizzardofodds.com and understands that ALL of his gambling is -EV. it doesn't seem like he gets this.

[PokerPaul]

Yes he did makie me feel a bit uncomfortable, not to mention the rest of the evening being a downer after that.

But i do know him pretty well, and i can tell you he does not go to casino that often, cuz he is always working. He has like 3 jobs and family with 3 kids and quite rarely actually has time to go out.

He doesnt really always want to go to casino either..its just when he goes...he goes on tilt.

Although, i should add that the previous 3 times i went with him, each time he did hit a jackpot at a slot machine..each between 1300 and 2200. He thought i was his good luck charm, and one of those times, it was almost same scenario, he was losing bill after bill, with me trying to get him to stop.....and then BOOM, jackpot, and everyone was happy.

Maybe he thought along the same lines again.

Yeah, your friend fell prey to the "intermittent rewards" trap when he lucked out on those earlier jackpots. Like the mice in the experiment, he keeps feeding the machine, waiting for the cheese that comes way too infrequently.

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
Although, i should add that the previous 3 times i went with him, each time he did hit a jackpot at a slot machine..each between 1300 and 2200. He thought i was his good luck charm, and one of those times, it was almost same scenario, he was losing bill after bill, with me trying to get him to stop.....and then BOOM, jackpot, and everyone was happy.

Maybe he thought along the same lines again.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very common pattern with problem gamblers. In the distant past, I could be accused of the same thought processes.

I believe your friend is guilty of questions 7 and 9 on the Gamblers anonymous questionnaire (I am guilty of 10 questions and don't think I have a problem, so take it with a grain of salt, or consider me a problem gambler, whatever).

Survey (http://www.aplaceofhope.com/gamblingsurvey.html)

[PokerPaul]

thanks for the reply.

I will try to forward that link to my friend.

For kicks i took it myself, even though i don't "gamble", but i used poker to analyze instead and got a score of 6.

says i don't have a gambling problem, but it does have a limited amount of control in my life

[thejameser]

play HU with him

[einbert]

It's his money and his problem, not yours. His problem is not your responsibility, and he has every right to gamble away every penny he owns and there's really nothing you can do about it.

[Jeffage]

Poker is gambling.

Jeff

[PokerPaul]

if you r a losing player..yes

if you win consistantly and exercise smart Money management, then ..NO

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

if you win consistantly and exercise smart Money management, then ..NO

[/ QUOTE ]


even then it is still gambling. it just happens to be positive EV gambling.

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

if you win consistantly and exercise smart Money management, then ..NO

[/ QUOTE ]


even then it is still gambling. it just happens to be positive EV gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't Vincent Lepore beat this topic up enough? It's semantics.

[Jeffage]

Please. Poker is a gambling game, it just happens to be one where good players have a longterm positive expectation.

Jeff

[PokerPaul]

i guess its all in the eye of the beholder, but if you use this analogy, wouldnt every bond and equity trader on wall street be a gambler then?

wouldnt many small business owners (such as my friend i talked about who owns a small family restaurant) be gamblers because some days the customers don't come into their store/restaurant and they take a loss for the day..etc.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
i guess its all in the eye of the beholder, but if you use this analogy, wouldnt every bond and equity trader on wall street be a gambler then?

wouldnt many small business owners (such as my friend i talked about who owns a small family restaurant) be gamblers because some days the customers don't come into their store/restaurant and they take a loss for the day..etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

gam·ble Audio pronunciation of "gamble" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gmbl)
v. gam·bled, gam·bling, gam·bles
v. intr.

1.
1. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.
2. To play a game of chance for stakes.

Stock traders are not making and losing money due to outcomes that are determined by random turns of cards, dice, etc. While they may understand the forces which control their investments no more than a craps player understands the odds of his chance game, they are INVESTING. Gambling involves games of chance, where specific outcomes are determined at random.

You cannot predict when a slot machine will hit, when the dice are hot, when 00 will hit on roulette, or when your K will hit the turn -- at least not with any more certainty than that laws of probability allow.

Meanwhile, business and investment outcomes are determined by non-random economic factors that, while difficult to understand, can be studied and predicted with success. Stock prices do not rise and fall at random -- cards do.

[HavanaBanana]

[ QUOTE ]
Meanwhile, business and investment outcomes are determined by non-random economic factors that, while difficult to understand, can be studied and predicted with success. Stock prices do not rise and fall at random -- cards do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have some shortcommings in your 'logic' and I would tear it to pieces if I weren't playing so many games right now.

However stockbroking is more volatile than a great pokerplayers game, and random, nothing is random, just sometimes all the facts are not known by you.

ToT

[HavanaBanana]

The TSUNAMI or 911, even though they were not random, they were pretty unpredictable, must make the Stock Market a gamble, no? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

ToT

[Cosimo]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe your friend is guilty of questions 7 and 9 on the Gamblers anonymous questionnaire (I am guilty of 10 questions and don't think I have a problem, so take it with a grain of salt, or consider me a problem gambler, whatever).

Survey (http://www.aplaceofhope.com/gamblingsurvey.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

7 here, but that survey is obviously biased since there is a big difference between +EV and -EV gambling.

"12. Were you reluctant to use "gambling money" for normal expenditures?" -- every good poker player should answer yes to this question. Etc.

If he's not playing +EV games, then yes that survery is probably a good indicator.

[MicroBob]

I've taken the survey before but am willing to do so again. I scored 17:

1. Did you ever lose time from work or school due to gambling?

Yes...although this one is difficult to answer. Because for me 'gambling' actually IS my 'work'.
Although I consider online multi-table grinding to be my 'real' work and sometimes I'll go play live at low-limits for fun.
but that's gambling too...that I view as taking time away from my work (which is higher EV gambling).
So yes...there is some gambling that takes away from my 'serious' gambling.

2. Has gambling ever made your home life unhappy?

Yes. Example - I finished 4th in a UB Aruba qualifier and the top 2 won the package. I was 1st or 2nd for much of the tourney. Gosh-darnit!!!
I also can't say that I'm THAT freaking thrilled when in a 200BB downswing.


3. Did gambling ever affect your reputation?

Yes - Some people I know think I'm much cooler than I really am because I play poker for a living and I played in the WSOP.

4. Have you ever had remorse after gambling?

Yes - such as "I wish I hadn't given that guy the free-card on the turn."

5. Did you ever gamble to get money with which to pay debts or otherwise solve financial difficulties?

Yes - All the time actually. My bills don't get paid if I don't gamble.

6. Did gambling cause a decrease in your ambition or efficiency?

Yes - I'm less motivated to work in a 'traditional' stuffy-workplace 8-to-5 job ever again because of gambling.

7. After losing, did you feel you must return as soon as possible and win back your loses?

Yes - I also feel like I need to return as soon as possible after winning to continue winning. I motivate myself to get in a decent number of hours each week regardless of whether I'm winning or losing.

8. After a win, did you have a strong urge to return and win more?

Yes. (see above)

9. Did you often gamble until your last dollar was gone?
No. (I usually win anyway)

10. Did you ever borrow to finance your gambling?

No (that I can recall anyway)

11. Have you ever sold anything to finance your gambling?
Yes. I have sold some items of mine that I was going to throw-out anyway. The money I made from those sales went into my total-bankroll...which funds my 'gambling'.

12. Were you reluctant to use "gambling money" for normal expenditures?

Yes. I'm reluctant to make 'normal expenditures' in the first place. Buying gas, paying the bills, etc. I hate all that stuff and am reluctant to do it.

13. Did gambling make you careless of the welfare of yourself or your family?

No.

14. Did you ever gamble longer than you planned?

Yes. such as when I make the final-table of a really big tourney (I don't PLAN on making final-tables of big-tourneys in the first place).
Also if I am sitting with an absolutely terrible player I will see it as a super +EV opportunity and will play longer than planned as long as he is still at the table practically giving his money away too.

15. Have you ever gambled to escape worry or trouble?

Yes, all the time. If I didn't gamble I would have MANY worries (such as "How the hell am I going to pay my rent?"). Gamblilng definitely helps me escape these worries and troubles.

16. Have you ever committed, or considered committing, an illegal act to finance gambling?

Yes. Internet-gambling is in a legal grey-area in the U.S. and in Tennessee. I do it anyway.

17. Did gambling cause you to have difficulty in sleeping?
Yes. (such as when a super-fish is still at my table and I'm postponing going to bed).

18. Do arguements, disappointments, or frustrations create within you an urge to gamble?

Yes. I'm 'disappointed' that I didn't win the trip to Aruba(for example)....I have an 'urge' to try it again because I know I am better than most of the players in that game.

19. Did you ever have an urge to celebrate any good fortune by a few hours of gambling?

Yes. Although more often I celebrate my good fortune FROM a few hours of gambling.

20. Have you ever considered self-destruction or suicide as a result of your gambling?

Yes. I drink way to much coffee...and I already know that sitting on my button and clicking buttons all day isn't exactly 'healthy'. I consider the coffee and general inactivity to be relatively 'self-destructive'. So not only do I 'consider' it....I already know that I actively am doing it. I take steps to try to counter that though (such as getting exercise via my rec-league soccer teams and what-not).

[JihadOnTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just curious (not trying to insult you), but if you can't control how much money you blow in the pit to the point that you have to someone else hold your wallet and money, it seems unlikely you'd have the discipline to be a winning player. How can you approach poker in a disciplined manner if you can't trust yourself not to blow off tons of money in other gambling situations?

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]
You must not have read his whole post....BEER....that is enough to change any poker players (I think neccessary) "gambol" knob to full.

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe your friend is guilty of questions 7 and 9 on the Gamblers anonymous questionnaire (I am guilty of 10 questions and don't think I have a problem, so take it with a grain of salt, or consider me a problem gambler, whatever).

Survey (http://www.aplaceofhope.com/gamblingsurvey.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

7 here, but that survey is obviously biased since there is a big difference between +EV and -EV gambling.

"12. Were you reluctant to use "gambling money" for normal expenditures?" -- every good poker player should answer yes to this question. Etc.

If he's not playing +EV games, then yes that survery is probably a good indicator.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something tells me slotboy would be a -EV poker player too.

[Spaded]

[ QUOTE ]

9. Did you often gamble until your last dollar was gone?
Yes, but then i re-bought from my well-managed bankroll and then slowly extracted my money back from that lucky fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[oneeye13]

sit at their table?