Raptor Donking Around at the 55s.. thoughts?

[raptor517]

***** Hand History for Game 2528521463 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:14804221 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Saturday, August 13, 14:53:40 EDT 2005
Table Table 12123 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: lal0re ( $930 )
Seat 2: Archemedes ( $1110 )
Seat 5: Grubbkungen ( $1595 )
Seat 6: JGRB666 ( $3320 )
Seat 7: rosc0e ( $1085 )
Seat 9: cantstop999 ( $1030 )
Seat 10: Itachi86 ( $930 )
Trny:14804221 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Itachi86 [ Ad Kd ]
cantstop999 folds.
Itachi86 raises [90].
>You have options at Table 11094 Table!.
lal0re folds.
Archemedes folds.
Grubbkungen folds.
JGRB666 folds.
rosc0e calls [60].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, 5d, 6h ]
rosc0e checks.
Itachi86 bets [125].
rosc0e calls [125].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4s ]
>You have options at Table 12952 Table!.
>You have options at Table 12952 Table!.
rosc0e bets [350].
Itachi86 is all-In [715]

holla

[Freudian]

Strong draw to the non-nut straight.

Actually I can't see him fold here. You have to explain what kind of guy this is for me to buy this as a good play.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Strong draw to the non-nut straight.

Actually I can't see him fold here. You have to explain what kind of guy this is for me to buy this as a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, dont get me wrong, i never said this was a great play.. ill go into it later..

[J-Lo]

if the straight comes, it's a split pot....

i've seen raptor play other hands like this, where you CANNOT put the villain on ANYTHING, so it must be a stone cold bluff-- Any reads-- w/ an overpair you'd think he'd checkraise or something, maybe A6, or 67-- again he's raise on the flop with these hands... wtf!!! So either he has nothing-- or a set. More often than not, nothing...

[Bonafone]

Well if he is on the flush draw you are stil the favorite.

I tend to make plays like this one occasionally as well. There's something about the way the they play the hand that makes you feel like you can pull it off. This play rarely looks good afterwards even if you take the pot down.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
if the straight comes, it's a split pot....

i've seen raptor play other hands like this, where you CANNOT put the villain on ANYTHING, so it must be a stone cold bluff-- Any reads-- w/ an overpair you'd think he'd checkraise or something, maybe A6, or 67-- again he's raise on the flop with these hands... wtf!!! So either he has nothing-- or a set. More often than not, nothing...

[/ QUOTE ]

ok now were talking. a lot of good poker is putting yer opponent on a hand, and then trying to take him off of it.. stu ungar was the MASTER at this. what you think my opponent puts me on? big pair/AK/AQ something like that? sure. what do i put him on? not a godamn thing. so i push. when they make big turn bets like that.. unless they are very good.. its a PURE bluff 80% of the time. holla

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if the straight comes, it's a split pot....

i've seen raptor play other hands like this, where you CANNOT put the villain on ANYTHING, so it must be a stone cold bluff-- Any reads-- w/ an overpair you'd think he'd checkraise or something, maybe A6, or 67-- again he's raise on the flop with these hands... wtf!!! So either he has nothing-- or a set. More often than not, nothing...

[/ QUOTE ]

ok now were talking. a lot of good poker is putting yer opponent on a hand, and then trying to take him off of it.. stu ungar was the MASTER at this. what you think my opponent puts me on? big pair/AK/AQ something like that? sure. what do i put him on? not a godamn thing. so i push. when they make big turn bets like that.. unless they are very good.. its a PURE bluff 80% of the time. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again, then you must have a read that this player doesn't get out of line and is predictable.

I see players making plays like this with hands that beat yours and will call yours. I no longer assume rationality on the part of my opponents. I had a guy call my all-in (getting 2:1) with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif on a flop of K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif with the explanation "I had the odds". You have to be sure your opponent isn't a guy like that before making a move like this, right?

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if the straight comes, it's a split pot....

i've seen raptor play other hands like this, where you CANNOT put the villain on ANYTHING, so it must be a stone cold bluff-- Any reads-- w/ an overpair you'd think he'd checkraise or something, maybe A6, or 67-- again he's raise on the flop with these hands... wtf!!! So either he has nothing-- or a set. More often than not, nothing...

[/ QUOTE ]

ok now were talking. a lot of good poker is putting yer opponent on a hand, and then trying to take him off of it.. stu ungar was the MASTER at this. what you think my opponent puts me on? big pair/AK/AQ something like that? sure. what do i put him on? not a godamn thing. so i push. when they make big turn bets like that.. unless they are very good.. its a PURE bluff 80% of the time. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again, then you must have a read that this player doesn't get out of line and is predictable.

I see players making plays like this with hands that beat yours and will call yours. I no longer assume rationality on the part of my opponents. I had a guy call my all-in (getting 2:1) with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif on a flop of K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif with the explanation "I had the odds". You have to be sure your opponent isn't a guy like that before making a move like this, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

well i duno im never sure of anyhting when i play, but if i think theres a decent chance i can take him off of it, im going to. holla

[The Don]

I make this play with A high every time I face a ridiculous overbet from a player OOP on the flop. I think I am folding the turn here though.

[MegaBet]

You're comparing yourself to Stu Ungar? LOL /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Matt R.]

I'm seeing either a slowplayed set here, or a semi-bluff heart draw.

If it's a set, I could see the 4th card to a straight on the turn scaring him. So he bets big, fearing you'll check behind with a free draw to the straight. I realize a 3 is a split, but it's still a scary board and he clearly doesn't want to give you a free draw to the split (and he could easily get action from a worse hand if he bets)

Also the heart draw seems reasonable -- maybe he wanted to see the turn cheaply, but then when he misses he thought he could take the pot down with a big bet on the turn (if he viewed your flop bet as a continuation bet). And if called or re-raised, he obviously has outs to continue.

I don't see this being an outright bluff too often by a reasonable player -- he begins the hand with next to nothing invested, yet he puts in half his stack with nothing hoping you'll fold. Then again, who says these players are reasonable?

Anyway, I'm seeing a set as the most likely holding that got scared by the turn. I'd fold without a read, since you really haven't put that many chips into this hand. A read that he's overly aggressive post-flop could change things entirely though.

Good hand to post. Looking forward to your analysis.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
You're comparing yourself to Stu Ungar? LOL /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

he actually did nothing of the sort.

he made a comment that is the same as "there's this guy in the same company as me who got ahead because he developed this skill real well. this skill is thus quite important, and i try to work on it."

citanul

[ilya]

I dunno...it's so little for him to call into such a large pot....and the only hand I can sorta put him on is 44.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
You're comparing yourself to Stu Ungar? LOL /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yea.. not really.. but you should cuz yer 50+ itm in the 215s over 500 sngs. holla

[Matt R.]

Yes, 33 and 44 would make sense as well. I didn't consider 44 initially (forgot to mention 33 in my other post). 33 is a little less likely to me though since I'd expect him to bet less or check with the 2nd nuts (edit -- 3rd nuts I guess. I'm sure raptor raises with 73 sometimes /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

[Freudian]

I wouldn't rule out 77 or 88 either.

[Matt R.]

Yep, I could see 77 as well. Do you think 88 would bet so big on the turn though? That seems a little bold to me to be semi-bluffing with a gut-shot. i.e. I think he would have led out or check/raised the flop if he liked 88 this much, rather than waiting until the turn when he picks up only 4 more outs. It does seem somewhat possible though, so I guess it can't be ruled out (and he still won't fold to a push /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)