9,9 Late Guy called me a donkey for playing this Pokerroom

[lozen]

I had no read on this guy as early in play. I raised his bet to clear the others out and find out if he hit the flop. I called his rearaise with the plan of folding if he bets out on turn. Turn hit me in a big way.

Is this a preflop fold?
Was i incorrect with my play on the flop?



Texas Hold'em $5-$10 (real money), hand #1,164,917,798
Table Tsumeb, 13 Aug 2005 10:31 AM ET

Seat 1: daGriz
Seat 2: Krispyfish1
Seat 3: bananaphon
Seat 4: thirdteen
Seat 5: queeer
Seat 6: Elvis lives
Seat 7: COLT00
Seat 8: Ghostbuste
Seat 9: lozenx13 [ 9C,9H ]
ANTES/BLINDS
daGriz posts blind ($2.50), Krispyfish1 posts blind ($5).

PRE-FLOP
bananaphon folds, thirdteen calls $5, queeer folds, Elvis lives folds, COLT00 calls $5, Ghostbuste bets $10, lozenx13 calls $10, daGriz folds, Krispyfish1 folds, thirdteen calls $5, COLT00 calls $5.

FLOP [board cards 7S,QC,5H ]
thirdteen checks, COLT00 checks, Ghostbuste bets $5, lozenx13 bets $10, thirdteen folds, COLT00 folds, Ghostbuste bets $10, lozenx13 calls $5.

TURN [board cards 7S,QC,5H,9D ]
Ghostbuste bets $10, lozenx13 bets $20, Ghostbuste calls $10.

RIVER [board cards 7S,QC,5H,9D,4D ]
Ghostbuste checks, lozenx13 bets $10, Ghostbuste calls $10.

SHOWDOWN
lozenx13 shows [ 9C,9H ]
Ghostbuste mucks cards
lozenx13 wins $134.50.

SUMMARY
Dealer: lozenx13
Pot: $137.50 | Rake: $3
daGriz loses $2.50
Krispyfish1 loses $5
bananaphon loses $0
thirdteen loses $10
queeer loses $0
Elvis lives loses $0
COLT00 loses $10
Ghostbuste loses $55
lozenx13 bets $55, collects $134.50, net $79.50

[Argus]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Is this a preflop fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not with that many people in. If Villain is a loose raiser (even after this many limpers) you can even 3-bet.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Was i incorrect with my play on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a more difficult question depending on villain's tendencies, but I think the answer is no. Many players autobet flops after raising preflop for a number of reasons. You have a hand that could be best and you have a great chance to thin the field. Once he 3-bets you are getting 17:1 on a 23:1 shot, so you only need to collect 3 more big bets if you hit. That's a reasonable goal and tending to call in marginal flop situations like this is probably good advice. So calling the 3-bet is correct. Then you hit and get paid. All good.

Don't listen to the people that table coach you. If their advice was any good, they wouldn't be giving it out at the table. Also, please convert your hands. I know the converter doesn't work well for pokerroom, but you could do something to make it more readable. It makes a difference. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is this a preflop fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not with that many people in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually fold here, following a 2 limpers and a raise. I am interested in the logic of this cold call.

You are 8:1 to hit a set and have to fear any overcard on the flop if you don't hit a 9 - given 3 opponents. Also, you need to dodge an overcard on the turn too, as they will likely have odds to see it.

[UVaHoo]

Some people in Pokerroom tend to berate if they lose any hand that they were a preflop favorite to win.

Preflop, my play here completely depends on the table. I might re-raise to try to clear out some trashy hands, or fold if the raiser has been unusually tight. With position though, I don't mind staying in the hand regardless, especially if the raiser is loose.

On the flop, I raise his bet ten times out of ten. First of all, there's a distinct chance you have the best hand. It's a pretty ragged flop that could have very easily missed the raiser. If you get 3-bet, for reasons stated above, call and fold the turn if a dangerous card hits.

[Argus]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Is this a preflop fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not with that many people in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually fold here, following a 2 limpers and a raise. I am interested in the logic of this cold call.

You are 8:1 to hit a set and have to fear any overcard on the flop if you don't hit a 9 - given 3 opponents. Also, you need to dodge an overcard on the turn too, as they will likely have odds to see it.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are getting between 3.5:1 to 4:1 to call, and when you do hit you need only collect 4 more big bets. This is not a difficult thing to do in this situation. However, you may also have the best hand and don't need to hit a set to win. You say that you have to fear any overcard, but that's not true. PFR can only hold two overcards to your nines, so if only one comes (especially if it isn't a king or ace), you can still like the board. That's what happened here. Only a single overcard and hero was close to even money to have the best hand. Since the other players have contributed money to the pot, folding would be incorrect. Knowing more about the tightness of the raiser can change my opinion, but there are a lot of players this would be correct against.

[KDawgCometh]

i think the only thing I do different is three bet it PF, but that is kinda semantics with this many limpers ahead of the PF raiser. everything after that is perfect.

If you can't convert the hand, then type it out in a format style

[Raydain]

Your odds are 7.5:1 of hitting on the flop and you can expect to collect a lot of bets if you hit.
On average you can expect you are getting 4:1 preflop but with the implied odds I think this is a good call from late position.

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is this a preflop fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not with that many people in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually fold here, following a 2 limpers and a raise. I am interested in the logic of this cold call.

You are 8:1 to hit a set and have to fear any overcard on the flop if you don't hit a 9 - given 3 opponents. Also, you need to dodge an overcard on the turn too, as they will likely have odds to see it.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are getting between 3.5:1 to 4:1 to call, and when you do hit you need only collect 4 more big bets. This is not a difficult thing to do in this situation. However, you may also have the best hand and don't need to hit a set to win. You say that you have to fear any overcard, but that's not true. PFR can only hold two overcards to your nines, so if only one comes (especially if it isn't a king or ace), you can still like the board. That's what happened here. Only a single overcard and hero was close to even money to have the best hand. Since the other players have contributed money to the pot, folding would be incorrect. Knowing more about the tightness of the raiser can change my opinion, but there are a lot of players this would be correct against.

[/ QUOTE ]

I now see that we have sufficient implied odds, but disagree about your thoughts on fearing overcards.

While it is true that one overcard should not necessarily put us behind against the PFR, my point is that there are at least 2 other opponents. Most limpers will have at least one overcard too, so between them we have to expect to be behind most of the time to any overcard.

[oreogod]

Look at implied odds like this with your PP.

Sets win about 75% of the time. So bump the 7.5:1 to hit a set to to 10:1. So it's 2 bets to you and and along with the raiser u expect the other 2 to call. That means, for your 2 bets, there will be an additional 7.5 SB in the pot (IF the BB doesnt come along). That means you're getting 7.5-2 immediate odds. So what kind of implied odds do you need?

Multiply that 10:1 by the amount of bets to you. Here, it's 2 bets to you, so turn that 10:1 to 20:2. Now you subtract. You need to win 20 bets for your 2 bet preflop investment. That means you need 20-7.5 = 12.5 SB of implied odds (so 6.25bbs need to be made up). Against a field of weak opponents, you'll USUALLY get around that.

This example, for the sake of brevity, discounts possible str8s, gutshot draws you might back into...etc.