What a STUPID 4th place...what should have I done?

[1C5]

So stupid. Your move here instead? Small raise folded to a push or simply fold or do you push also?

Was called by AK to lose but it doesn't matter if it would have been KQ, 22 or TT that I was called by, still a dumb push I think.

Total number of players : 4
Seat 4: Hero (1860)
Seat 5: Spadevol (635)
Seat 7: bigchips1000 (1795)
Seat 8: blong2 (3710)
bigchips1000 posts small blind (100)
blong2 posts big blind (200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Jh, As ]
Hero raises (1860) to 1860
Hero is all-In.
Spadevol folds.
bigchips1000 calls (1695)
bigchips1000 is all-In.

[Uppercut]

This is a situation where many people (including myself) make a move with AJo because we feel that we are being weak-tight if we don't. I'm learning that the last thing I want to do on the bubble is take on the big stack in the big blind with a mediocre starting hand, espcially when there is a small stack on the verge of busting.

I push. AJ is too good of a hand, IMO, and the short stack isn't low enough yet for me to sit back. I think it's a good time to pick up chips, since the SB should be thinking how low the short stack is, and the BB knows that he can coast into the money, as long as he doesn't do something stupid. And if someone wakes up with a hand...well, it's a sign to stop playing poker and go back to work. Maybe my problem is exactly what you're saying, I think folding is weak tight.

it's my 3rd post, so take it for what it's worth.

[BadMongo]

Well, I wouldn't call AJ 'mediocre' in a 4 handed situation. It's a pretty decent starting hand on the bubble in most cases. However, I agree that pushing is questionable because of the relative stack positions.

Initially I thought this was an easy push despite the other stack sizes, but after fooling around with SGA I'm convinced it is not. A push seems to be -EV for any reasonable calling ranges you put the other player on. I really don't like the idea of raising to 500-600. This would be about a third of your stack, and even if no one comes over the top, there is a good chance the big stack will call from the BB, which puts you in a tough spot if you miss the flop.

It seems pretty weak/tight, but I think a fold is correct.

I raise to 600 and take the blinds. If raised, I fold most of the time. Of course, dont always look for cookie cutter anwsers. Poker is a situational game.

The reason you fold ot a raise, is that a raise will USUALLy mean a better hand (not always), but even if you do fold after the 3x BB rasie, you have plenty of chips to get ITM.

[Damian UK]

I am really confused by the answers here

AJo is a weak hand 4-handed? and a 3xbb raise is enough?

I guess if all you want to do is get ITM then fold everything except AA and KK, of course if you want to WIN proper money then push <font color="red">every </font> time.

A 3xBb raise achieves nothing except to lose 1/3 of your chips if you miss the flop and fold to a push from another player and/or check it down to the river and lose, (with you then paying the BB next hand). Will the BB call for another 400 with a mediocre hand, probably yes, will he call another 1600, most probably no, therefore easy push.

You should push, as it knocks out the SB if he calls and loses and cripples the BB if he calls and loses (1/2 his stack).

Can't see why you would want to fold this at all?

Just my thoughts

Damian

[USCSigma1097]

This is one of those "play to get ITM first" and then play for first vs. play for 1st questions. Sure, if you fold your ace jack offsuit, you don't have to worry about someboday waking up with a monster, however, you are almost certainly never going to get ITM with a proper chip stack. It is this aggression on and around the bubble that is going to get you a nice ROI in the long run. A fun poll would be to see what the winning players would push here, and I can guarantee you that Ace Jack would be in the top fifteen to twenty percent.

You pushed ace jack, someboday had ace king. I'm sorry, that's why it is called gambling.

The good news is that approximately ten tournaments are starting in the next thirty seconds.

Sigma

[NiR]

blinds 100/200 hmm.... if this was 50/100 i would easily just raise instead of push. in these situations 70% of the time i would push. but because blinds are getting close to small stacks whole stack, i might consider 3bb raising this and stealing it there. if someone is willing to call 3bb in this stage as long as its not the chip leader, i take it into account for the type of hand he might have. if raised? well thats raiser dependent. not sure what i would do. but call me weak tight if you want but i will be playing this hand with extreme cautious if called and i miss. ill gamble for 1st when i am itm. "gamble for 1st, Settle FOR THIRD!!"

[BadMongo]

The reason you would want to fold this is because raising to 3xBB is a bad idea for the reasons you stated in your post, and pushing is -EV. That leaves folding or limping. I'd rather not limp for 200 chips only to have the BB min bet the flop and force me to fold beacause I have no idea what hands I could be up against (not to mention the fact that you expose yourself to raise PF as well). That leaves folding as the only option left.

[BadMongo]

There is no reason to feel like you have to gambooool in in spots which are -EV to do so.

[silencee]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason you would want to fold this is because raising to 3xBB is a bad idea for the reasons you stated in your post, and pushing is -EV. That leaves folding or limping. I'd rather not limp for 200 chips only to have the BB min bet the flop and force me to fold beacause I have no idea what hands I could be up against (not to mention the fact that you expose yourself to raise PF as well). That leaves folding as the only option left.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd like to see the math that shows this as -EV. it feels to me like most responses in this thread are being too results oriented.

[BadMongo]

I used SGA to do the calculations, and I'm not going to go through the tediousness of writing it all out for you by hand. You can do it for yourself if you want, but here are the results according to SGA:

I assumed a fairly loose calling range for the other players would be appropriate, since this is a low buy-in SNG. I used 22+, A2+, KJo+, K9s+, QJs (23% of hands).

EV Fold = 26.7%
EV Push = 26.3%
EV Diff = -0.4%

So this is a pretty clear fold. The calling range of the big stack is by far the most important estimate, but the interesting thing is that even if we tighten up the big stack's range to an unrealistic 99+, AQ+, a push becomes only marginally +EV with a gain in equity of only +0.2%.

[USCSigma1097]

If you've calculated that pushing ace jack off four handed is negative ev i think you forgot to carry a two or something.

Sigma

[BadMongo]

If you think about the situation for a second and don't just look at your cards, you'll realize why it is -EV.

[Klak]

if you want a chance of winning, youre going to have to make some moves like this where youre not sure where ur at. i see this as a pure blind steal and im not really thinking about the few hands that dominate me calling. rasing any less just invites the BB to call and catch a pair or whatever.

[BadMongo]

[ QUOTE ]
if you want a chance of winning, youre going to have to make some moves like this where youre not sure where ur at.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be true, but I'd rather maximize $EV than first place finishes. Obviously its hard to know the exact EV of a situation like this while playing, but given that information and pushing anyway to 'play for first' is just throwing money away.

[MegaBet]

Patience is the key to winning...

[Seth Money]

I dont particularly care for AJ but 4 handed its a tight hand. I guess your question should be do you want to come in the money or have a really good chance of winning if you take the hand.. I personally would have raised to 600 if someone pushes at least you have two options, and the short stack isnt involved here.

[ilya]

This is a clear fold with these blinds, but that guy with AK made a horrible call. He had an even clearer fold.

Why does no one like limping here? It seems to me that if pushing is -EV and a 3BB raise most likely won't result in a successful steal, you might limp. If, after a limp, someone behind me raised I'd release AJo in this situation. But the possibility of seeing the flop cheaply seems enticing here.

[Klak]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a clear fold with these blinds, but that guy with AK made a horrible call. He had an even clearer fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for putting this in prospective for these people. lol

[UVaHoo]

I'm amazed at the number of people saying that they'd fold/limp/raise to 3x bb. To me, this is a clear raise or fold. If you limp, you take a good hand and risk losing your chips to a crappy hand or being pushed around by the bb. Your M is only 6, and your effective M is even less.

I think the calling range used for the calculations is far, far too loose. Yes, it's a low buy-in. However, at low buy-ins, people seem (to me) to play even tighter on the bubble than normal, because they're weak players. They don't understand that being aggressive on the bubble is the way to win tournaments. You have a top 10% hand, and happened to run into a bigger hand...like others have said, tough luck.

Folding hands like this while waiting for the short stack to bust out is a good way to get lots of 3rd place finishes when you get ITM with no stack remaining.

Maybe I'm too aggressive, but to me this is a push every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[BadMongo]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the calling range used for the calculations is far, far too loose.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fine, you are free to disagree with me, but I've played thousands of low buy-in SNGs and I think this range is pretty accurate for a donk with a big stack. You can go ahead and tighten it if you want, it barely makes a difference in this case because the blinds are so small. For example, if you were to tighten ALL THREE of the other players' ranges to the top 10% only (55+, ATo+, A8s+, KQs), your EV for pushing is -0.3%.

[ QUOTE ]
Folding hands like this while waiting for the short stack to bust out is a good way to get lots of 3rd place finishes when you get ITM with no stack remaining.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, folding hands like this is a good way to increase your ROI.

[ QUOTE ]
to me this is a push every day of the week and twice on Sunday

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you should reconsider your position then /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Klak]

good luck with those 3rd places. you will never win a tournament if you fold here 100%. the ev calculations are so close that they dont really matter.

the fact is, you are not likely to see a better hand than this for a long time and this is a good chance to try to pick up the blinds. pushing accomplishes this the best.

so you fold every hand on the bubble other than AA, KK, or AK? i dont get it.

[ilya]

I don't think I really made this clear in my first post. Pushing here is not good. You have a healthy stack and the push is only marginally profitable even if all 3 of your opponents are quite tight. All this "playing for 1sts" nonsense needs to stop, it's meaningless. OBVIOUSLY AJo is a very strong hand 4-handed, but hand value is just one among many considerations on the bubble.

You should have folded, IC5.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]

so you fold every hand on the bubble other than AA, KK, or AK? i dont get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

22 is a better hand than AJ. You are pushing UTG with two big stacks in the blinds. If you were UTG+1 and only had one big stack to worry about, I think the EV would change significantly, and would guess that AJ would be a push.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

22 is a better hand than AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, no. Hot and cold, yes (although AJs is a favorite over 22, actually). But for pushing into a bunch of random hands, you definitely want the AJo.

[BadMongo]

Is it really that hard to understand? The goal is to maximize EV, not win the tournament. Please explain to me how you are going to make more money by making -EV pushes such as this. You'e risking a healthy stack UTG when there is a guy with only 3xBB and another guy in the BB with almost half the chips in play for a payoff of only 300 chips! Are those 300 chips going significantly improve your relative chip position? NO. You are risking far too much for far too little. Even if you win those chips, you'll still only have around 2000 chips and won't be in a much better position to compete for first than you would be by folding.

So be patient and fold.

[Klak]

well im wrong again. i should be getting used to this. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif i see the reasons why folding is correct, but i doubt that during a hand i would be able to let this go. and if i do play, i have to push.

[Damian UK]

I agree entirely with this, yes as we know there is AK out there it is -EV, but you don't know, so to say fold is the correct option is nonsense IMHO

Damian

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

i'd like to see the math that shows this as -EV. it feels to me like most responses in this thread are being too results oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Damian UK]

sorry mongo - I dont have a programme to put this through, but i still can't see how not pushing AJ in this position is wrong (-EV). Why would the BB call with such a loose set of cards for half his stack?

I would push every time in this situation

Cheers

Damian

[BadMongo]

Ok I give up.

I've tried to explain why it is a fold, I'm not being results oriented. Maybe someone could explain why this is a push with something more substaintial than 'OMG it's AJ on the bubble' or 'play for first'.

[Damian UK]

limp?

how is that enticing - an Ace hits, what do you do? push maybe?

A jack hits, what do you do?

hmmm, an AKJ hits - now what do you do?

Limping is rubbish, why waste your chips

if the big stack has anyting about him and the flop is rags he will bet and you still might have the winning hand (ignoring this particular case)

Definately don't limp, thats worse than folding IMHO

Cheers

Damian

[BadMongo]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would the BB call with such a loose set of cards for half his stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because players at this level are morons, that's why. But it's irrelevant anyway - put them on tight ranges and it's still a fold.

[Damian UK]

if they are morons aren't you better to push then and hope he calls with Q 5?

I play $11 at the mo and in my recent experience people are extremely tight on the bubble because they want to get ITM first and then worry about winning it. BB wont call for min raises etc, why? coz they don't understand pot odds and want to protect their stack. they see 83 off suit, have the short stack push for another couple of 'BB or so' and fold because they don't want to double up the shortstack.

Just my thoughts

Damian

[Damian UK]

2 big stacks? one has very simlar chips to you (+35) the other has twice your chips - so for one its out of the tourney if he gets it wrong, and for the other, its crippling time and worrying as they get shortstacked

So I would think that this make the push a +EV because they don't want to risk their tourney on a gamble - you are only going to risk a call with a really good hand, and he had that, but I don't see how their stacks are so much powerful from the pushers to make it an instant call with any two 'above average' hands.

Cheers

Damian

[ QUOTE ]



[/ QUOTE ]

22 is a better hand than AJ. You are pushing UTG with two big stacks in the blinds. If you were UTG+1 and only had one big stack to worry about, I think the EV would change significantly, and would guess that AJ would be a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

[bengele]

I tried to do this long hand using BadMongos range and got a different answer that he did. Is my math right? The only thing I didn't account for that I can think of is multiple calls.

Win/Loose according to poker stove
Ajo 56.34%
22+, A2+, KJo+, K9s+, Qjs 43.66%

Button will call 23.68% of the time.
Button will fold 76.32% of the time.
Button will win 10.339% of the time (.2368*43.66)
Button will loose 13.341% of the time (.2368*54.34)
When button wins he we gain 935 chips (doubles up + small blind + big blind)

76.32% button gains 0 chips (.7632*0=0)
10.339% of the time button wins 935 chips (.10339*935=96.67)
13.441% button looses 635 chips (.13441*635=84.72)

Button average chips = 635+0+96.67-84.72=646.95

SB will call 18.073% of the time. (1-.2338)*.2368) // this is because button may have called.
SB will fold 81.927% of the time (1-.18073)
SB will win 7.89% of the time (.18073*43.66)
SB will loose 10.182% of the time (.18073*54.34)
When SB wins he we gain 2060 chips (Hero chips + big blind)

81.927% SB looses 100 chips (.81927*100=81.93)
7.89% of the time SB wins 2060 chips (.0789*2060=162.54)
10.182% SB looses 1860 chips (.10182*1860=189.39)

SB average chips = 1795-81.93+162.54-189.39=1686.22

BB will call 13.793% of the time. (1-.2338-.18073)*.2368) // this is because button or sb may have called.
BB will fold 86.207% of the time (1-.13793)
BB will win 6.022% of the time (.13793*43.66)
BB will loose 7.771% of the time (.13793*54.34)
When BB wins he we gain 1960 chips (Hero chips + small blind)

86.207% BB looses 200 chips (.86207*200=172.41)
6.022% of the time BB 1960 chips (.06022*1960=118.03)
7.771% BB looses 1860 chips (.07771*1860=144.54)

BB average chips = 3710-172.41+118.03-144.54=3511.08

Hero's average chips must then be 8000-646.95-1686.22-3511.08=2155.75

Average chips after push
Hero 2155.75 (28.46%)
Button 646.95 (11.31%)
SB 1686.22 (25.01%)
BB 3511.08 (35.23%)

[lastchance]

Yes, but there's something called ICM. Having 2000 chips is quite different from having 0 chips 50% of the time here, and 4000 chips 50% of the time.

You can't get called here. If your opponents are loose, you need to get away from this. This can be hard.

I push here, but after this thread, I think it might be a mistake.

[bengele]

I know about ICM that is what the percents are in the after push section.
[ QUOTE ]

Average chips after push
Hero 2155.75 (28.46%)
Button 646.95 (11.31%)
SB 1686.22 (25.01%)
BB 3511.08 (35.23%)


[/ QUOTE ]

On average you gain 1.76% of EV by pushing. Some times it could be more, sometimes less, and as you said some times zero. 1.76% may or may not be enough to justify a push based on your stack size and the short stack but that is anohter discussion. Am I not using ICM right? I think I am but I can alway be wrong.

[SammyKid11]

Well, every conceivable calling range I can come up with in SNGPT's says pushing is a mistake (or, best case scenario, a +0.3% - which, if that's best-case...it's a mistake). I tended to agree with folding from the onset of reading the thread, but this confirmed it for me. It indicates the relative value of the presence of a very short stack and a very large stack at your table on the bubble. Position, also, is a huge issue as well.

The mathematically "correct" play should no longer be in doubt (otherwise we should all scrap Eastbay's program and just go back to guessing), though I can see where this feels very close (bc it is), especially depending on your style.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
limp?

how is that enticing - an Ace hits, what do you do? push maybe?

A jack hits, what do you do?

hmmm, an AKJ hits - now what do you do?

Limping is rubbish, why waste your chips

if the big stack has anyting about him and the flop is rags he will bet and you still might have the winning hand (ignoring this particular case)

Definately don't limp, thats worse than folding IMHO

Cheers

Damian

[/ QUOTE ]

I think playing postflop (limping) is only rubbish if you have 0 reads on your opponents and don't know how to play postflop.

&gt;&gt;&gt;ZIP

[adanthar]

What the hell is going on in this thread? It's like the last six months and ICM never happened.

As to the hand, since it's a low buyin, raising to 500 and folding to a push or just plain limp/folding (while trying to get the short stack to push) are both fine. In a 109, I'd push since big stack isn't calling me without those nines.

[BadMongo]

OK, I honestly don't know where you are getting some of these numbers from, +1.76% is a ridiculous result that should tell you something is wrong. So instead of trying to sort out everything you did wrong I just did the analysys by hand myself (of course I used poker stove and the ICM calculator to makes things a bit easier).

I'm assuming a calling range of [22+, A2+, KJo+, K9s+, QJs] for each player, but it really doesn't make too much of a difference in this case as I mentioned before.

This range represents 23% of all possible hands, but since some hands (i.e. pairs) are less likely to be dealt than others, the actual chance of being dealt one of these hands is 20.6%

Against the given range, AJo wins 56.34% of the time, and therefore loses 43.66% of the time.

Ignoring multiple callers and split pots for simplicity, there are 7 possible outcomes for pushing:
a) BTN calls and you win
b) BTN calls and you lose
c) SB calls and you win
d) SB calls and you lose
e) BB calls and you win
f) BB calls and you lose
g) Everyone folds


BTN calls = 20.6%
a) % win = (.206 x .5634) = 11.6%
Chips = (1860 + 635 +300) = 2795
$EV = 34.2%
b) % lose = (.206 x .4366) = 8.99%
Chips = (1860 - 635) = 1225
$EV = 18.8%

SB calls = (1 - .206) x .206 = 16.3%
c) % Win = (.163 x .5634) = 9.18%
Chips = (1860 + 1795 +200) = 3855
$EV = 38.6%
d) % lose = (.163 x .4366) = 7.11%
Chips = (1860 -1795) = 65
$EV = 2.3%

BB calls = (1 - .206 - .163) x .206 = 13%
e) % Win = (.13 x .5634) = 7.32%
Chips = (1860 + 1860 + 100) = 3820
$EV = 36.6%
f) % lose = (.13 x .4366) = 5.68%
Chips = (1860 - 1860) = 0
$EV = 0%

Everyone folds = (1 - .206 - .163 - .13) = 50.1%
g) % Win = (.501 x 1) = 50.1%
Chips = (1860 + 300) = 2160
$EV = 28.5%

$EV Push = (.116 x .342) + (.0899 x .188) + (.0918 x .386) + (.0711 x .023) + (.0732 x .366) + (.0568 x 0) + (.501 x .285)
= 26.32%

$EV Fold = 26.56%

$EV Diff = 26.32% - 26.56% = -0.24%

This is pretty damn close to the -0.3% result that SGA gives.

[vabogee]

even if you put the two other large stacks calling range at 'super tight' (like JJ+, ATs+, AJ+), it's a marginal push at best (+.5%).

basically, fold if you like money.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
if they are morons aren't you better to push then and hope he calls with Q 5?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. In bubble situations with a tiny stack, an all-in showdown is usually more EV for the bystanders than it is for the people in the confrontation.

[jkiddy07]

I wouldve raised 3x bb. If i get reraised, i would seriously have to consider what type of players they are. If theyre a bunch of TAGs, I fold to a reraise all in and live to fight another day. Even if he has pp 2's, its not worth calling on a coin flip because you are on the bubble. Wait it out for a better situation and dont over use the all in especially when you have so many chips. Its stupid to risk your entire stack for 3 sb.

[ZeroPointMachine]

I was surprised by the ICM results on this. After playing around with it for a while I realized that the key factor here is not the relative strength of your hand or with the size of the shortstack. The key factor is the size of the blinds. If the blinds are 150/300 it becomes a clear push. I don't feel the short stack is small enough to be a factor in your decision at this point. If he doubles up once he becomes a contendor.

The problem with this hand(at 100/200) is it falls in that fuzzy 8-10 BB area where just because ICM says push doesn't mean you should. In this case ICM says you shouldn't. So, pushing is clearly bad. But that doesn't mean that folding is correct. How to play it depends entirely on your style and your reads of the table. Almost like playing poker.

I for one will almost never fold this hand.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
limp?

how is that enticing - an Ace hits, what do you do? push maybe?

A jack hits, what do you do?

hmmm, an AKJ hits - now what do you do?

Limping is rubbish, why waste your chips

if the big stack has anyting about him and the flop is rags he will bet and you still might have the winning hand (ignoring this particular case)

Definately don't limp, thats worse than folding IMHO

Cheers

Damian

[/ QUOTE ]

I think playing postflop (limping) is only rubbish if you have 0 reads on your opponents and don't know how to play postflop.

&gt;&gt;&gt;ZIP

[/ QUOTE ]

[Damian UK]

Just had AJ 4 handed, pushed got called by the BB with AK

should have let it go

OK, lesson learned

Thanks all

Damian
(hoisted by his own petard!! /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/crazy.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif)

[Sciolist]

I have to say that whilst I do respect the people who've worked out the EV in these situations, my instinct would definitely be to raise. I wouldn't want to go allin though.

Perhaps if I knew the big stack was tough and would just put me allin knowing I didn't want to bubble, I'd be passing or going allin. That isn't often the case in small buyin events though.

So my question is, when exactly do you steal blinds? Most games you have 4 players on relatively equal stacks at this stage. What kind of situations should you be looking for? If one guy has 3x bb and another has 10x, I can see the rationale for simply passing. What if everyone had 2k? Is it a push then?

Shall I go search for ICM? :]

[BadMongo]

Who's being results oriented now? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Damian UK]

Hey Mong

Maybe I have realised the error of my ways - since then 6 games, 3 firsts and 2 thirds - I seem to have stopped this habit of pushing on the bubble with Ax (except AK)

cheers

Damian

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldve raised 3x bb. If i get reraised, i would seriously have to consider what type of players they are. If theyre a bunch of TAGs, I fold to a reraise all in and live to fight another day. Even if he has pp 2's, its not worth calling on a coin flip because you are on the bubble. Wait it out for a better situation and dont over use the all in especially when you have so many chips. Its stupid to risk your entire stack for 3 sb.

[/ QUOTE ]

. the biggest consideration in just raising to 3x BB preflop (by the way, if i were to raise here, it would probably be to t500, the extra t100 doesn't get you much) is that an alert big stack should be pushing over the top with any two.

As the previous discussion has shown, it is incorrect to lead push preflop. It would be even more incorrect to call a push for all your chips, because you longer have the fold equity portion of the calculation working in your favor.

[BadMongo]

[ QUOTE ]
I seem to have stopped this habit of pushing on the bubble with Ax (except AK)

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to see that you got somethng out of this mess of a thread /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Be careful not too generalize the results of this thread too much though - often times pushing Ax on the bubble IS the correct play. It just so happened that it wasn't in this particular case.

I would have pushed as well with AJo. You're 4-handed, your "M" is 3 (For you Dan Harrington fans) so you're in the "Red" zone. It's not a matter of whether to go all-in, rather when to go all-in. You had 1st-in vigorish with a big Ace. What other kind of had could you be waiting for? It was just bad luck that you ran up against AK. I don't fault you at all for moving in.

[BadMongo]

*Sigh*

Did you read the thread AT ALL?

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
*Sigh*

Did you read the thread AT ALL?

[/ QUOTE ]

But duuude, it's AJ, 4-handed!!11

eastbay

[BadMongo]

play for 1st, biatch!!!111 /images/graemlins/tongue.gif