Help: How to convince my gf NOT to play to get her money back

[Maddenboy]

My gf has been playing for a living (sole income) for about 4 years.

However, she sometimes plays really long sessions when she is stuck. She recently dropped about 150BB at 15/30 in about ten days. She refuses to even consider dropping a limit or two, multitabling, to rebuild confidence and re-establish a winning mindset. She thinks "how can i get my money back if i drop to 5-10? Or 3-6? NO WAY!!"

To her credit, she always believes that she loses money because she is not playing as well as she could. She is always trying to improve her game and look critically at her own play.

Most of us have had situations where we were stuck and tried to get some or all of it back. And sometimes we do. I, for one, in B&M, almost always get it back, even if it takes me 18 or 20 hours to do it. But i only do it when, objectively, controlling for my sleepiness, the game is still good and i am still one of the better players in it.

The problem i am having is trying to explain to her that playing to get your money back is bad poker, bad psychology, and one step (or no steps) above fish behavior. It makes you press, gamble, chase, pay off, speculate far too much, and try to emulate the guy who just won the huge pot with 63s, because you need a huge pot.

She believes that if you dont try to get your money back, you dont care about money, you have no focus or drive, and you are destined to go broke with that attitude.

I try to tell her just to play every session, and every hand, with the objective of playing it the best you know how. I need some tips, anecdotes, strategies, visualizations, or anything i can try to get through to her.

Dont play to get your money back. Play because you believe you can win some money. Its about the Long Run.

Or, am i wrong?

[TimsterToo]

I think you've answered most of your own questions. So there's nothing wrong with the content of your message.

You might want to wrap it up differently and convey it to her in a manner she might listen to. I really don't know you or your gf good enough to be able to tell you how you could go about that.

[Maddenboy]

Thanks.

But its that "manner she might listen to" part that is the main purpose of this post. I've been trying for over a year, whenever i hear her say the phrase "get my money back."

Maybe there are some female players on here who could suggest a line, example, language, etc., that she would be receptive to. All the technical, cerebral stuff fails miserably. She nods her head knowingly, but her eyes are glazed and i know she is thinking "hurry up and finish so i can log back in and get my money back."

[PLOlover]

I think you're wrong. She's been a pro for four years, and you're trying to tell her what to do?

[vexvelour]

I'm a female player. Fortunately, I learned my lesson in the micros so I didn't go through a huge swing.

She's been playing a long time (longer than you, perhaps?) and that's why she won't listen to you. She's got this game mastered, didn't you know? lol. I'm kidding...but anyway, you are absolutely right. Sounds like she might just be in a downswing and I'm sure she's encountered this before and pushed through it.

However, I think for the most part all poker players that successfully make their money back have the tomorrow rule in their toolbox. Why not get some rest, eat something, and I'll play tomorrow. There will still be money sitting at the tables tomorrow.

[ QUOTE ]
She believes that if you dont try to get your money back, you dont care about money, you have no focus or drive, and you are destined to go broke with that attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like she's worried more about the money than what cards she holds or how well she's playing. This is a horrible attitude to hold at a table (How many times have you read in poker books how if you're defending your buy in you'll never get anywhere...)

I really just suggest, since she is aware of improving her game, that you suggest she re-read her books. I'm sure some of the elders here will tell you that 10 days is so few hands that it doesn't really matter, but it sounds like shes fallen off her A game and needs a boost. I am in the same rut right now. I just went to the bookstore, picked up a new poker read, and immersed myself in it. Good luck, but you are right. I wish I had more suggestions.

[Jerboa]

There is an old Chinese story I think about whenever I begin steaming about a bad beat, or a bad session. It always seems to put me back in the correct frame of mind.
****
Two monks were walking along the road back to their temple, the temple elder, and a newly ordained initiate. They come to the ford, the river swolen by spring rains, and encounter a young bride in her wedding dress in tears.

"Please, sirs, help me" she says. "I must get to my wedding on the other side of the river, but if I try to cross, it will ruin my wedding dress!"

"Climb on my back child, I will carry you across" said the elder monk.

This she did, and once across the monk sets her down.

"Thank you! Thank you!" she cries, and runs down the path to her wedding. The monks return to their temple.

Back at the temple, the young initiate could stand it no longer.

"Master!" the young monk cried, "How could you let that girl touch you! She was not purified! You risked your eternal soul!"

The elder smiled sadly. "My son," he calmly replied, "I stopped carrying that poor girl on my back at the riverside. Why is it you have not?"
*****

Perhaps she need to leave her bad session behind?

i wish i read this Befor my trip great post

[Maddenboy]

Thanks for your suggestions. And thanks Vex, for your perspective.

We have been playing about the same number of years, in the same casinos. That's where we met. But i have been employed, so her focus has been a little different. Lifetime, i think we have about the same number of hands, and the same experience at the same variety of limits.

Its hard for me when an otherwise reasonable person REFUSES to consider, or even listen to, anyone tell her to do something besides get her money back immediately.

I thought i made some progress when i said something like "imagine you just walk into the casino on a normal day and think 'I have to make a thousand bucks today.'" Do you think you will play good poker? Of course not. maybe decent, but not your best.

So then, if you are in the game and stuck a grand, walk to the bathroom and come back and think "I have to get my thousand back," it should be the same situation. you will NOT play your best poker, so your chances of getting it back will not be that good.

Otherwise, you could just walk into any casino, say "i'm going to get a thousand" and do it every day of your life. You know you cant. This is no different.

All i get is "yeah, i understand, but i lost X dollars. I need to get it back. Those fish are holding my money for a while, but i need it back. Why dont you understand? I cant believe you dont care about money."

I'm still stuck here.

[mockingbird]

I'm a female player. But I am nowhere near to being a professional and have only been playing about 6 months or so.

If she has been playing as a pro for 4 years I dont think you are going to change her attitudes. As some others have mentioneed suggesting she read or reread some poker literature might help.

It seems like you are trying to control her - not necessarily in a bad way, you are trying to help her improve. But you are still trying to control what she thinks, her attitudes, how she expresses them etc.

I realize, or agree, that she would be better off if she took your suggestions. But, all you can do is present them to her. And then I think it best to let her be who she is, faults and all. We all have faults after all.

If it does not jeapardize her or your financial security, let it go and focus on your own game and enjoying the best parts of her personality and her company. I assume you are not dating her only because of her poker skills.

You are close to sounding co-dependent on this one.

[AffleckKGB]

Surprisingly, the pro player is right and the controlling dilettante boyfriend is wrong.

[Tuben]

I have my own system about that kind of thing.
When i loose i dont care i fool myself that i never had them /images/graemlins/smile.gif It is gone so i always try to forget when i loose .

[Orpheus]

Actually, you're not trying to convince her to get her money back. You're completely confident that she'll get her money back --with good reason, since she's a long term winner.

However, any decent player knows to optimize their return by playing when/where conditions are as good as possible. That is part of a good player's discipline, and if you're playing without that discipline, you're playing without discipline. There's no way to make that sound like a good thing.

How many poker scams and skillful stings consist of getting a player a bit in the hole and then skinning them alive? Lots. How many are based on letting a player go home to rest recuperate, and treturn to make a clear-headed choice of table and game? None. Guess why.

Sure, sometimes you'll be down, even at a good table, but she's not saying "I want to stay because I know the conditions are great here", she's saying I *have to* get my money back (right here, right now; not tomorrow or the next day). That's an undesirable compulsion. that's letting a table tell you when to play, not the other way around.

It also suggests an exploitable insecurity. You want her to step away when the empirical evidence suggests that conditions may not be idea. You have faith that she'll win. Her thinking is based on something different. Quite a few financial advisors (I think Suzy Ormand is the best known) have shown how people fail to make money, or cripple their own returns because of inner pscychological issues and symbolisms. Fixing them is the first step to greater profits in the short, medium and long term.

How often do we look at the play of the top pros (or world leaders or CEOs, etc.) and see very obvious leaks? They may be worlds better than us, but that doesn't mean they don't make basic mistakes or have fundamental flaws. It's not insulting to have a basic leak; "basic" doesn't mean "first greade rookie error", it means "deriving from a fundamental aspect of the game". It may be possible for the best players to transcend the fundamentals of the game, to "float" -- but when you're losing, you ain't a-doing it. End of story

OF COURSE, she has always eventually make back her money. She's very good. However, when the table controls you, rather than the other way around, you're on tilt, out of control in some way. No one transcends tilt. That's what tilt means: letting events transcend YOU. You can get lucky, sure, but you're still on tilt (and often bad luck tilt plus luck leads to an equally dangerous good luck tilt)

The real problem is: what happens when she doesn't "make it back tonight" -- which is bound to happen someday. The same unaddressed underlying psychological issues that compell her play will likely lead to further undesirable play. She didn't "make it back" that day, so she'd be doubly pressured to make it back the next.

Isn't that the basis for half the nightmare runs of the legendary names? NO ONE is above Risk of Ruin.

Of course, she'll make it back. There's no question of that. So why must she do it under conditions that don't appear favorable? Maybe she's tired or sick or fallen into bad pattern or misread the players or is more bothered than she realizes by something in her life. Maybe her boyfriend is a jerk. Maybe she's pregnant. Maybe the players are colluding.

What isn't a maybe is this: she's good enough that she'll win in the long run. There's no need to do it now.

Nobody wins a head-up match against the unknown factors of the universe. That's why we're mortal. No one can't improve. Believing, even tangentially, that you can't (or don't need to) change can be the first page of a bad story.

When a GF has helped me deal with an issue that has been plaguing me, it's always been a great gift (however much I may have fought it). Usually it pays back great divvidends in the form of a slightly less screwed up BF (No woman could fix ALL my neuroses; a team of European brain specialists couldn't make a dent with anything less than a .44 mag.)

Of course, you have issues on your side, too. I have no idea what they may be, but you can't be free of them, any more than giraffes can jumprope. Still, it sounds like your heart is in the right place. Good luck.

[Maddenboy]

Thanks.

While i appreciate Affleckkgb's pinpoint insight and stunning analysis, I think the biggest help is to explain to her "of course you'll get it back."

I like it for a couple reasons. First, she WILL. I havent stressed that to her, but i know it and she knows it.

Second, it gives her confidence, and lets her know i still have confidence in her. Not just in her play, but in her desire to improve her game always.

Third, and perhaps best of all, it empowers her to CONTROL when and where she gets it back. I find the best way to get someone to do something is to lead her 90% of the way and let her take that last step. Feeling like you are the one who thought of it yourself makes you more likely to go with it.

Thanks. Anything else, i'm all ears, in case this doesnt work.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I find the best way to get someone to do something is to lead her 90% of the way and let her take that last step. Feeling like you are the one who thought of it yourself makes you more likely to go with it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't convinced of your being a controlling codependent until I read the above.

[Maddenboy]

oooooookay. Thanks. I guess.

I will admit to having a sorta controlling personality.

However, in this instance, i think the general consensus is that i am trying to get her to do something that is, objectively, in her best interest.

I wont bore you all with obvious examples of trying to get, cajole, coax, persuade, force someone to do something that is undeniably in her best interest.

So, for those who agree that what i am trying to do is good for her, or for those who have friends who press to get their money back and are looking for a good strategy to help that person, I am still soliciting help.

Thanks in advance.

[Python49]

Your girlfriend plays poker professionally at 15/30? This world is unfair.... i don't even have a girlfriend at the moment.

[Trix]

Does she play losing poker when she is stuck ?

[Maddenboy]

Good question.

By "losing" poker, i assume you mean "losing money, net" as opposed to "playing like a loser, fish, suboptimally." The difference may be slight, or there may be no difference, but I am convinced that the latter is definitely true, based upon watching her play and hearing the hand recaps after a losing-and-trying-to-climb-back session.

I actually dont know. and neither does she. I do have two observations, which she wont deny. First, she gets her money back less than half the time during that same session. Second, she occasionally gets all or most of her money back, (winning poker, or just a reversal of her running bad? not sure) keeps playing, and starts to slip back down instead of making it all the way. Put another way, she plays to get ALL of her money back, not most.

Maybe we should figure a way to keep track of that. If it turns out not to be good, she would have to stare the numbers in the face and (hopefully) decide not to press so hard.

[DCWGaming]

A poker pro girlfriend...

Id give 150 15/30 BBs for one of those...

[ThinkQuick]

[ QUOTE ]
To her credit, she always believes that she loses money because she is not playing as well as she could.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously this is an important mindset to have for poker, but I've also found it easier to leave a table when losing or convince a friend to leave a table when losing by acknowledging that

there may be a reason out of my control that I'm doing things incorrectly, like misreading other players or not knowing that they all have reads on me..
and the only thing to do about it is to stand up and come back the next day.

I still think the only times you should be spending real long sessions in one place are when you're making a killing. Why make reasons to stay at a losing table?

[VoraciousReader]

[ QUOTE ]
...I will admit to having a sorta controlling personality. However, in this instance, i think the general consensus is that i am trying to get her to do something that is, objectively, in her best interest....


[/ QUOTE ]

A few points:

The "consensus" that what you are trying to get her to do is in her best interest comes from a random group of posters on an internet forum who have only heard one side of the situation...yours.

I do find it interesting that you admit to VERY similar behavior in your original post. If I may quote:

[ QUOTE ]
I, for one, in B&M, almost always get it back, even if it takes me 18 or 20 hours to do it. But i only do it when, objectively, controlling for my sleepiness, the game is still good and i am still one of the better players in it

[/ QUOTE ]

So when you do this, you are objectively assessing the risk/reward and choosing the optimal strategy to achieve your goal. However, when your gf does it, she is demonstrating obsessive-compulsive self-defeating behavior.

Hmmm.

And, from your second post:

[ QUOTE ]
All the technical, cerebral stuff fails miserably. She nods her head knowingly, but her eyes are glazed and i know she is thinking "hurry up and finish so i can log back in and get my money back."

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you have specifically solicited input from women, as a woman, I'm going to translate this for you. I think you are mentally adding "I know you are right but I don't care...hurry up and finish so I can go get my money back."

She is actually thinking, "Oh, good grief he's started nagging me about this AGAIN. I have been a GD poker pro for 4 years and I am so tired of him rattling on about this. But I love him, so if I just quietly nod maybe he'll stop and we can avoid ANOTHER fight about this."

I am not trying to pick on you, by the way. And I haven't been a poker player for very long. But I have been a woman for 30 years.

You may very well be correct. Your gf may not always be making perfect decisions. If she would just do what you want she might be more successful, happier, better rested, and experience less stress. The thing is, if she has managed to support herself as a pro for 4 years, she's already pretty successful. And she has a great guy who is concerned about her welfare and shares one of her big interests. (Even if he does think she needs to be "fixed" and writes posts to that effect on internet forums.) So, chances are, she's pretty happy already, too.

And even if you don't always agree with her decisions, they are just that: hers. ESPECIALLY regarding a job/career. (It's not like she's asking you to move to Trinidad for her job...you are only marginally affected by this behavior, if at all. When she wants to move to Trinidad, THEN you get to have an opinion.) Sometimes she gets a little obsessive over her work. So do people with lots of kinds of jobs, not just professional poker players.

You're not her father, you're her boyfriend. You've already talked to her about this, and she doesn't WANT to change what she's doing. And it seems to work reasonably well for her. Stop focusing on "fixing" her. You need to decide if this is a quirk you can live with. Personally, I think you'd be crazy to let go of an otherwise good relationship because you don't like the way she does her job. But I don't have to live your life, and only you can make those decisions.

Trying to manipulate her "for her own good" is quite frankly, creepy. And you've tried the "honest concern" approach. Is this such a huge issue that you want to fight about it until she retires? Is it THAT important that you get your way in this?

Just some questions that you might want to think about.

[Orpheus]

I think the above post is excellent, and it certainly made me think.

However, I also believe that you might have gotten different responses all around if you'd opened an anonymous account (with explanations) asking "How do I get my BOYfriend to..." and distinctly different sets of responses with "How do I get my FRIEND...", "...my husband..." or "my son/daughter". I'm not criticizing anyone. We're social beings and relationships are not irrelevant, they are crucial.

I presumed that this was a last-ditch effort before you gave up on the issue. I may well have been wrong. I replied as someone grateful for the great fortune of having learned a many life lessons from my GFs, but life isn't always geneder-symmetric. We may hope it will be (or not) but reality trumps wishes.

I assume your GF reads the great poker books and 2+2 (if not -- why not?), and that you do, too. Therefore, you know that essentially every 2+2 author (probably incl. her favorite) has devoted at least one directly to-the-point line saying not to do this. Find the ones that she might listen to. Note them. BUT do NOT highlight them, harp on them, or make this an issue of who's right. Choose one time to say "you know Sklansky (or whoever) says..." and then drop it.

Freedom --no, make that "basic personal autonomy"-- can't exist unless we can choose our solutions and mistakes. She deserves that much. Everyone does.

Though your most recent post makes it sounds as if she is somewhat less successful in "making it back" that your OP did (and brings it more in line with the experiences of my own friends), but it also doesn't sound like it an issue that is seriously damaging her revenue stream, or impacting her ability to mmet her obligations.

For get "optimal". This may be more an issue of rhetoric than results. Don't fixate on whether her rationale meets your inspection, and accept that she may simply need to do it --for now-- as an issue of personal satisfaction. Many many of us drop down to lower levels to blow off steam with decidedly -EV play or (on a larger scale of life decisions) work in the places/jobs that we find most rewarding vs. most remunerative. In fact, I hope we all would.

[ThinkQuick]

[ QUOTE ]

However, I also believe that you might have gotten different responses all around if you'd opened an anonymous account (with explanations) asking "How do I get my BOYfriend to..." and distinctly different sets of responses with "How do I get my FRIEND...", "...my husband..." or "my son/daughter". I'm not criticizing anyone. We're social beings and relationships are not irrelevant, they are crucial.


[/ QUOTE ]

i like this

You got a lot of good answers to your post and I just wanted to point out something that has been touched but not clearly said yet.
She might be denying the change because YOU are the one suggesting it.
In that case, you'll just make it worse by trying again and again. Even if you use diffrent strategies.. So take it easy, you might just be making it harder for her to change herself.