When should I move up to PLO50?

[jj_frap]

I'm playing at PokerStars and currently have $600 in my bankroll...The PLO25 games there are so fishy that they're going to be hard to leave if only because of the comic relief...

But I must grow up eventually.

Here's what I'm up against. Try hard not to laugh.

PokerStars Game #2325744818: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/08/12 - 23:33:11 (ET)
Table 'Nenetta III' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: allie91484 ($4.80 in chips)
Seat 2: mutt214 ($1.65 in chips)
Seat 3: chaman ($8.55 in chips)
Seat 4: ninja T ($21.45 in chips)
Seat 5: jj_frap ($37.95 in chips)
Seat 7: saja ($4 in chips)
Seat 8: plccbly ($7.70 in chips)
Seat 9: MABBRAD ($8.50 in chips)
oneyellowman will be allowed to play after the button
saja: posts small blind $0.10
plccbly: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jj_frap [7c 3d 4d 5h]
MABBRAD: calls $0.25
allie91484: calls $0.25
mutt214: calls $0.25
chaman: calls $0.25
ninja T: calls $0.25
jj_frap: calls $0.25
saja: calls $0.15
plccbly: checks
*** FLOP *** [Jh Ks 6s]
saja: checks
plccbly: bets $1.90
MABBRAD: calls $1.90
allie91484: calls $1.90
mutt214: folds
chaman: folds
ninja T: folds
jj_frap: folds
saja: folds
*** TURN *** [Jh Ks 6s] [4h]
plccbly: bets $5.55 and is all-in
MABBRAD: calls $5.55
allie91484: calls $2.65 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Jh Ks 6s 4h] [Kc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
plccbly: shows [6h 4c Qh Jc] (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
MABBRAD: mucks hand
plccbly collected $5.50 from side pot
allie91484: shows [Jd 6d 5s 7h] (two pair, Kings and Jacks - lower kicker)
plccbly collected $14.90 from main pot
allie91484 leaves the table
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $21.45 Main pot $14.90. Side pot $5.50. | Rake $1.05
Board [Jh Ks 6s 4h Kc]
Seat 1: allie91484 showed [Jd 6d 5s 7h] and lost with two pair, Kings and Jacks
Seat 2: mutt214 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: chaman folded on the Flop
Seat 4: ninja T folded on the Flop
Seat 5: jj_frap (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: saja (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: plccbly (big blind) showed [6h 4c Qh Jc] and won ($20.40) with two pair, Kings and Jacks
Seat 9: MABBRAD mucked [Tc 2d Qs As]

[TheRempel]

There are not a great deal of PLO $50 games going most of the time. The busiest levels by far are $25, $100 and $200. If you're playing one table you should be fine but you may have difficulty finding games if you're a multi-tabler.

One way to 'get used' to playing at a level if you are a multi-tabler is to add one table at that level into your rotation. Once you feel comfortable enough you can start adding more tables and eventually move up entirely.

The players at the $50 games are substantially better than the $25 games for the most part. In fact, I've found the $50 players to be better than most of the $100 players.

[BluffTHIS!]

12 buyins isn't enough. I would suggest 30 at a minimum because of the high variance that plo can have. And when you have enough, like $1500, if you start to suffer a significant downswing, maybe "only" $300, then drop back down and rebuild and re-evaluate your game. Alternately, if you are multi-tabling, you could play 2-3 $25 tables and 1 $50 table with a lesser amount.

[PorscheNGuns]

From what Ive learned on Party Poker, the average 100 player is no better or worse than the average 25 player. From what I've heard from other players, the jump occurs at the 200 level and up, yet even through the 2000 level it can be considered, on the overall, fishy at the least.

-Matt

[TheRempel]

I'm referring specifically to stars and I have a lot of hands at all levels up to $200. Trust me, the $100 players are far far worse on average than the $50 players. I think the $100 tables are the entry point for a lot of players while the $50 tables tend have players on their way up.

[jj_frap]

So would a better alternative between to get into the 2000 - 2500 range and move from 25 to 100 while skipping 50?

[Spellmen]

I would want at least 3500-4000 for the 100 tables. I would stick to the 25s until then while throwing in a 50 game every now and then when they look good

[TheRempel]

I would not advise skipping the $50 level entirely. Just be aware that you are going to have a hard time finding good games there most of the time. Keep playing $25 and add in the occasional $50 table until your br hits at least $3000 (playing four tables, you should be able to do this in a fairly short time if your workrate is good). At that point you can start playing a cross section of $25, $50 and $100 until you feel comfortable enough to move entirely up to $100.

[adam74]

I've been thinking about this a fair bit...it's not all about bankroll, is it? You need to be beating the level you're currently playing at fairly comfortably before moving up.

I've played 60000 hands at the $25 tables at Stars, playing as many tables as there are available, up to a maximum of five at a time, and my win rate is an adequate but not spectacular 9 BB/100. I'm satisfied with that, but wonder whether it indicates that I play well enough to move up to the $50 tables.

I've flirted occasionally with the $50 tables, but have done poorly - 5000 hands, losing 4 BB/100. [Not necessarily significant, I know.]

Two quotes from a post by Todd from this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=PLomaha&Number=2718336&fpa rt=&PHPSESSID=) ...

[ QUOTE ]
Winrates are interesting. 6 is ok because, well, you are beating the game. It is not expert though. 10 is solid. 14-15ish is pretty good. I would say an absolute expert could beat the lower games (say, $200PLO and below) for something to the tune of 22BB/100.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are beating the lower games for only 6BB/100, you're on the right track, but have a lot of room for improvement.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, assuming my bankroll is adequate, would a win rate of 9 BB/100 in the $25 games indicate that I can move up to the $50 games and do better in absolute money terms?

Thanks.

Are these win rates real BB/100, or PTBB/100?

[adam74]

As far as my win rate is concerned, it's PT BB/100.

I don't know about the win rates in the quotes. I had assumed that they were also PT BB/100, but I'm not sure.

[TheRempel]

Honestly, you should be able to crush the $25 tables simply nut peddling for at least 15BB/100 hands (I am referring to big bets here, btw).

[adam74]

Thanks.

So my current win rate of 9 PTBB/100 would indicate that I've got plenty of improvement to make before I move up?

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, you should be able to crush the $25 tables simply nut peddling for at least 15BB/100 hands (I am referring to big bets here, btw).

[/ QUOTE ]
What's a "big bet" on a 25 cent PLO table?

[liquid]

[ QUOTE ]
What's a "big bet" on a 25 cent PLO table?

[/ QUOTE ]

$0.50 (2x big blind).

[TheRempel]

I would guess that you are probably not getting paid well enough on your winning hands. Value betting is very opponent specific and can make a big difference in your WR.

[ QUOTE ]
Are these win rates real BB/100, or PTBB/100?

[/ QUOTE ]
More noob questions:

What is the definition of PTBB? and how is it different from "real" BB/100?

[TheRempel]

Some people define BB/100 as Big Blinds / 100 hands. Poker Tracker uses Big Bets / 100 Hands. A big bet is 2x the big blind.